[TheRealJA105]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

Yep a pre 2019 SS 1LE and yep, looks like T16. A buddy sent me some pix (he was there doing TT).
Sadly, the car looks done. The driver "claimed brakes" according to my buddy. Haven't driven the circuit (yet), but from what i understand (from folks i know and Randy Pobst), dropping a wheel on exit there always ends badly.
That's all i know.

PS Sorry no pix, as i wish to respect privacy.

What TT was there? And why didn't I know about it?

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by Mountain

Yeah... T16 is one you can go for a bit of an interesting ride.

With all due respect, lets not have this thread become one where we just report on the latest track incident involving a Camaro.

Claiming brakes can mean a lot of things...

Lets get all the facts, first, before we start to think "another one".

Well said! Ive included it here because of the "brakes", but as you said, this can mean many things.

So, a bit of a knee jerk reaction on my part. Cheers!

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by TheRealJA105

What TT was there? And why didn't I know about it?

I think it was NASA. You didn't know about it because you're too fast

[ConcernedFan]

This past weekend at Grattan Raceway turn 1, another Camaro experienced what Sam did. Brakes fine entire session, then pedal to floor, no brakes. Experienced driver (Ok), car banged up - could have been much worse.
I don't have a lot of details, but wanted to share to help out your community. It doesn't appear to be a one off issue.

[Mountain]

Originally Posted by ConcernedFan

This past weekend at Grattan Raceway turn 1, another Camaro experienced what Sam did. Brakes fine entire session, then pedal to floor, no brakes. Experienced driver (Ok), car banged up - could have been much worse.
I don't have a lot of details, but wanted to share to help out your community. It doesn't appear to be a one off issue.

If you can find more details or usher the individual on here or to Sam, that would be awesome.

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by ConcernedFan

This past weekend at Grattan Raceway turn 1, another Camaro experienced what Sam did. Brakes fine entire session, then pedal to floor, no brakes. Experienced driver (Ok), car banged up - could have been much worse.
I don't have a lot of details, but wanted to share to help out your community. It doesn't appear to be a one off issue.

So far, and subject to any concrete root causes found and reported, a common thread here *seems* to be RBF600.
At least as it applies to 2 cases listed here. How, why, etc is beyond me. But that is what is common thus far.

[Calubi]

Damn... RBF600 is my go-to fluid now that SRF is impossible to find. Guess it's time to try Brembo HTC64T or AP R3 just in case.

[Mountain]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

So far, and subject to any concrete root causes found and reported, a common thread here *seems* to be RBF600.
At least as it applies to 2 cases listed here. How, why, etc is beyond me. But that is what is common thus far.

I don't agree:

1. Sam's car: RL-600 (RedLine)
2. Jackie's Supra: RBF-600 (Motul)
3. rs4eva's C7: SRF (Castrol)
4. Unknown Camaro: SRF (Castrol)

Sam, himself, does not think this is brake fluid related and he knows of one other person with a Camaro that has had his issue and they were on SRF...

Let's look at brake pads:

1. Sam's car: Raybestos race (ST-45; 370mm front rotor)
2. Jackie's Supra: Hawk race (DTC60,70 or 80/CSG C11; 380mm front rotor)
3. rs4eva's C7: Carbotech (XP20/XP10; 371mm front rotor)
4. Unknown Camaro: Hawk race (unknown, probably DTC60 or DTC70)

All pads 0.550-0.800. That's probably a better focus if you're going to start pointing fingers (and maybe not directly responsible). And that's not me saying I think it's brake pads: I don't think we have enough information to really say "it's this" or "it's that".

Side note: the base spec for the GT4.R Camaro runs Pagid RST front/RSL29 rear pads (SS 1LE pad shapes, front* and rear) on 380mm front/365mm rear rotors (also have much better brake cooling than street Camaros).
*very, very close, but much thicker; ZL1 1LE has a larger pad area actually

[Boost Creep]

The common thread I see is none of these were on stock pads/fluid.

Good fluid, properly bled, shouldn't cause an issue. If the fluid was old or from an open container all bets are off.

Now the pad change, that could cause an issue.
Factory system near thermal limit on stock pads, add more aggressive pads and thermal limit exceeded, hypothetically.
Heat absorbed by front pads/calipers cause fluid to "boil" even momentarily would spell disaster.

My thoughts as no mechanical component suspect as of yet.

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by Mountain

I don't agree:

1. Sam's car: RL-600 (RedLine)
2. Jackie's Supra: RBF-600 (Motul)
3. rs4eva's C7: SRF (Castrol)
4. Unknown Camaro: SRF (Castrol)

Sam, himself, does not think this is brake fluid related and he knows of one other person with a Camaro that has had his issue and they were on SRF...

Let's look at brake pads:

1. Sam's car: Raybestos race (ST-45; 370mm front rotor)
2. Jackie's Supra: Hawk race (DTC60,70 or 80/CSG C11; 380mm front rotor)
3. rs4eva's C7: Carbotech (XP20/XP10; 371mm front rotor)
4. Unknown Camaro: Hawk race (unknown, probably DTC60 or DTC70)

All pads 0.550-0.800. That's probably a better focus if you're going to start pointing fingers (and maybe not directly responsible). And that's not me saying I think it's brake pads: I don't think we have enough information to really say "it's this" or "it's that".

Side note: the base spec for the GT4.R Camaro runs Pagid RST front/RSL29 rear pads (SS 1LE pad shapes, front* and rear) on 380mm front/365mm rear rotors (also have much better brake cooling than street Camaros).
*very, very close, but much thicker; ZL1 1LE has a larger pad area actually

Agree. There is insufficient information to make any conclusions regarding root causes.
Frankly, there is also very little info on examples 3 and 4 to automatically put them into the same category.

But, there is a "common thread" (not to be confused with definitive cause, which i have never stated as such) between 1 and 2: a "600" (vs higher rated) fluid *and* extreme torque pads.

Another "common thread" is that the pedal went suddenly in both examples 1 and 2 and apparently with no prior warning.

Another data point is the state of Supra's bled fluid, which is completely black. A whole large bottle of it. It is unclear if this fluid was changed prior to that day, or had been used before. It appears Sam's fluid had been used before, including a hot day. There is no mention of it being bled, etc. So many data points are missing.

What somebody thinks vs what actually transpired will likely remain a mystery, unless more info is presented (such as a component failure of sorts).

In my - strictly personal - opinion, not running a top dog fluid at highly competitive pace, combined with high torque pads (and even worse, if one staggers the torque putting more duty on the F vs the bias designed by the OEM), combined with limited cooling capability of the OEM system: may spell trouble.

To this point, I would be interested to hear, if anyone had a similar experience, ever, while using stock pads (or only a mild upgrade torque wise). Cheers!

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by Boost Creep

The common thread I see is none of these were on stock pads/fluid.

Good fluid, properly bled, shouldn't cause an issue. If the fluid was old or from an open container all bets are off.

Now the pad change, that could cause an issue.
Factory system near thermal limit on stock pads, add more aggressive pads and thermal limit exceeded, hypothetically.
Heat absorbed by front pads/calipers cause fluid to "boil" even momentarily would spell disaster.

My thoughts as no mechanical component suspect as of yet.

+1

[ConcernedFan]

How can you not suspect mechanical components when that is in fact the only thing common to all of these failures? They were all Camaros with Camaro braking systems?

I agree that gathering other details is important, but I think other car platforms have gone done similar paths with similar problems (fluid, pad material, vacuum capacity, wheel/tire size compound). But, with so little accompanying data find it impossible to come to any ultimate conclusion.

I'm not saying to stop info gathering, I'm just asking why disregard the obvious common components?

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by ConcernedFan

How can you not suspect mechanical components when that is in fact the only thing common to all of these failures? They were all Camaros with Camaro braking systems?

I agree that gathering other details is important, but I think other car platforms have gone done similar paths with similar problems (fluid, pad material, vacuum capacity, wheel/tire size compound). But, with so little accompanying data find it impossible to come to any ultimate conclusion.

I'm not saying to stop info gathering, I'm just asking why disregard the obvious common components?

"They were all Camaros"? There was ONE Camaro.
The other ONE car was a Toyota Supra.
Same day, same track, same corner (as far as i understand it). Similar pads and fluid.

[Mountain]

If you do some digging into rs4eva's case on the C7 forum, there is a decent amount of information.

As far as Jackie's can, the fluid in that car was old and used in some prior track driving (this is mentioned in the video). In addition, I do not think you can conclude the same "no pedal" as Sam from Jackie's video.

A lot of people confuse "no pedal" with over-heated brake fluid causing a very, very weak pedal. In the sudden moments of things going "oh $h!t" people's concentration typically become less sensitive over true zero pedal and a very, very weak pedal. I've been there, too, in another car, years ago and will admit it scared me to where I wasn't able discern true no brakes (zero; i.e. a line burst, whatever) from completely boiled over fluid. It was fluid and it was due to #1 reaching the thermal capacity of the brake system and #2 my inefficient braking techniques.

In the end, honestly, the only vehicles listed that we can "confirm" the same issue as Sam is the other Camaro owner he spoke to (#4), to which none of us has much details on. The reason I am so active in here is because it is very easy to take someones word on "no brakes" and interpret it various ways, where in fact, most cases are probably people falling into the same category as I a few years ago = exceeding the thermal capacity of the brake system, either by the components altered or by driver technique error or both - often times pride comes in the way of accepting this fact. A lot can be assumed because there are variables...