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Old 08-16-2022, 05:09 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trochoidal View Post
jamala00, this isn’t directed towards you. But your response kicked started this thought.

I’ve read these threads thoroughly as they popped up. I too have stayed away from commenting, except today. How about this talking point?

Let’s talk workforce being offset by the EV push. My main point is from the businesses that support ICE vehicles. Where do they exist in the future? I’m sure I’ll miss many manufacturers, but here’s a starting point.

Spark plugs/wires
Air filters
All oil products used in ICE (motor, transmission, differential)
Gaskets (intake manifold, heads, headers, water pump, etc)
Engine, transmission, transfer case, differential manufactures
Fuel pumps/ injectors
All exhaust components
Clutches

Now what about the service businesses?

Independent full service garages and also dealership technicians.
“Jiffy Lubes”
Transmission shops

I’m just talking about automotive industries.

Where does the trucking industry fit into this EV model?

Furthermore, does the marine and aviation industries fit in here anywhere?

Oh yeah, how do all of the aftermarket companies survive?

Maybe I’m not thinking outside of the box, but that seems like a lot of employees that will no longer be “needed”.
I'm sure the horse and buggy industry had the same discussion a bit over a hundred years ago.

Not sure i have any sympathy there. Some workers have to be more adaptable than others because their work deals with transitional technology. That's something you know going into it.

The better ones will adapt and find new ways to make money and support themselves as those transitions occur.


Most of the items you listed above are things that cost me money. Not things i enjoy spending money on. I'm not going to miss spark plugs or oil changes so I'm on board with leaving that to history.

The heavy anti-ev sentiment in regards to the phasing out of muscle/pony cars is really amusing though. As if remaining ICE would have kept them around. I've heard literally no reason being attributed to EV's that wasn't already a factor and part of the manufacturer's ICE plans leading to this same result.

These cars were going away no matter what barring some massive reversal of the entire public's buying habits of cars. Cars are going to be less/no fun to drive no matter what. Cars are going to be nickle and dimed for features and services no matter what. Cars are going to get more expensive in relation to all other living expenses no matter what. Cars are going to start driving themselves in more and more situations no matter what. The public is going to favor less invested money in car ownership and this is going to drive fleet ownership and services to replace personal ownership for low/mid income consumers. There's just too many financial reasons for all parties involved (personal, govt, corporate, manufacturer, safety conscious, environmental concerns, etc) to go in this direction and not enough reasons not to.


edit: and what is the aftermarket these days besides aesthetic parts and snakeoil for like 90% or more of their sales? I'm sure EV's will have the opportunity for that still. So they wont be able to sell a handful of 6000 dollar supercharger/turbo setups anymore. Big deal. They probably make more money selling fiberglass/plastic stick on parts by far than what they get after R&D on something like a supercharger setup. I'm not convinced they're very scared. Plus think of all of the money they'll get selling "Monster" style cables to improve your ground loops and reduce resistance, etc that they'll be able to sell to take the place of the nonsense cold air intake money they'll be missing out on. I'm sure they'll be fine unless they're really bad at their job.

Last edited by cellsafemode; 08-16-2022 at 05:23 PM.
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Old 08-16-2022, 05:19 PM   #100
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I totally get your point. I was there when they first said it, but now I believe it. Allow me to toss in a bit of history. When I was at GM, GM Legal was the bane of my existence for many reasons. One of those reasons was that whenever we suggested going to market with performance claims, pricing claims, or competitive comparison claims they came out of the woodwork with the most banal reasons why “you can’t say that”. So, unless the new GM has found a way to stifle the lawyers, I’m inclined to believe that if it’s in print, they mean it. And they have definitely put it in print.

Another signal is they just cut the price of Bolt EV and Bolt EUV by over $5,000 to get them both under $30k before they exit the portfolio just as Equinox EV comes in. And it’s not like those vehicles weren’t selling (EUV outsells Camaro)
I worked for GM for 30 years and there is little you can tell me about GM's legal department that I haven't witnessed.

GM used to sell hundreds of thousands of Cavaliers at huge losses every year just to buy enough CAFE credits to allow them to sell the volume of high profit vehicles they were selling. The idea that they will be be able to actually sell a $30k Equinox at a profit (again assuming this isn't a fake number created with tax credits, etc.) given today's EV economics is hard to believe. I believe they are losing money on the Bolts as well. If true this is a recycled marketing strategy.

And how specific are they being about the content of this "$30k Equinox"? You can buy an Equinox pretty cheap today if you get a base model with few options. An equivalent electric model with a short range battery, selling for $30k, would meet the commitment w/o being something most people would actually buy. Now that is also a GM tried and true marketing strategy.
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Old 08-16-2022, 05:35 PM   #101
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Let's get to the heart of the matter, the government far outstepping its bounds. The 2012 EPA mandates courtesy of Obama were a joke foisted upon the too stupid public to see the writing on the walls. Sure it will save you $200 in gas a year, but the car will cost 1200 more, then 1800, then 2500 more and on and on. The EPA should have had its wings clipped a long time ago. No one bothers to read bills and the stupidity contained therein and that is a problem. There is more than one way to tax people and that is arbitralily increasing their costs for the same purpose. So once again the sleeping public has had the wool pulled over their eyes once again and the middle class pay the price.
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Old 08-16-2022, 05:36 PM   #102
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The main reason why they're going out of production is that heavy fines for not meeting CAFE requirements are going into effect for the 2022 model year, per previous administration's timing.

https://www.reuters.com/business/aut...in-2022-03-27/

And for everyone who doesn't believe in EV "subsidies", almost all the Insterstate, state, county, and municipal roads were paid for by the government through taxation.

So please do spare us the hypocrisy of ignoring "subsidies" when it suits you personally (by driving on those roads), and opposing them when it doesn't.
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Old 08-16-2022, 05:45 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by cellsafemode View Post
there's not 1 government ruling decisions being made in the world. Yet the whole world is moving towards electric. Why? Because it has massive benefits over ICE for the corporations that make them and it aligns with other priorities that both consumers and the public has.

But the collapse of enthusiast sporty cars for mid and low income people has been something that was going to happen even if you eliminate EV entirely. It's literally irrelevant to this topic.

EV didn't kill our cars. The wage gap did and changing priorities the market that buys these cars did. Our shift in what cars are succeeding and what ones are failing and how corporations are looking to maximize profits is entirely a capitalist process between the buyers and sellers. It's a pattern that was started over 20 years ago.

Be mad at big government and environmentalists all you want, it wouldn't have changed anything regarding the demise of pony/muscle cars. The middle class is poorer or smaller than they have been in many decades and their priorities have changed and have been changing for a long time now. Fun cars aren't in the budget, and corporations are under constant pressure by the rich to keep making them money by growing profits indefinitely. What other outcome would you expect from these two pressures?

edit: You gotta look at it thru a lens of the origin for our niche of vehicles. They had room in the market because most of the alternative was slow, and far from what you could consider fun to drive. Fast forward to today's cars ...and they're all way way faster and better performing than almost any option from the 90's and earlier. Even SUV's and all but the base-est models of econo-box offerings. It doesn't take much at all to have illegal levels of displays of performance on most roads/highways. The niche our car existed in has been eroded by the advancement of cars in general (almost exclusively ICE based advances in performance). There's no need for our cars with their compromises in practicality for the vast majority of buyers who used to buy them because everything else sucked that bad.

Our kind of cars had a deadline for that reason long before any kind of EV legislation.

This is.... just laughable at best. Go check out the billions in out tax dollars that have gone to EV, solar and all the other hyped garbage that is going to change the world while the people espousing them gobble up beach front ocean property and fly around in private jets while telling u what to drive because of global warming. As long as the middle class pays for it, they;ll keep trying to make it happen.


Again, someone who never bothered to read the 2012 EPA mandates Obama signed. It's right up there with NAFTA for ****ing us all.
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Old 08-16-2022, 05:53 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trochoidal View Post
jamala00, this isn’t directed towards you. But your response kicked started this thought.

I’ve read these threads thoroughly as they popped up. I too have stayed away from commenting, except today. How about this talking point?

Let’s talk workforce being offset by the EV push. My main point is from the businesses that support ICE vehicles. Where do they exist in the future? I’m sure I’ll miss many manufacturers, but here’s a starting point.

Spark plugs/wires
Air filters
All oil products used in ICE (motor, transmission, differential)
Gaskets (intake manifold, heads, headers, water pump, etc)
Engine, transmission, transfer case, differential manufactures
Fuel pumps/ injectors
All exhaust components
Clutches

Now what about the service businesses?

Independent full service garages and also dealership technicians.
“Jiffy Lubes”
Transmission shops

I’m just talking about automotive industries.

Where does the trucking industry fit into this EV model?

Furthermore, does the marine and aviation industries fit in here anywhere?

Oh yeah, how do all of the aftermarket companies survive?

Maybe I’m not thinking outside of the box, but that seems like a lot of employees that will no longer be “needed”.
Yep, whether we like it or not, the auto industry was long overdue for disruption. Don't forget the impact to traditional dealerships as well. They may seize to exist in the future or will be radically different. The typical sales folks will probably disappear as well.

Ford is pushing for the Tesla ordering model. You build it, leave a deposit and wait for a VIN. You select your local dealership/service center for delivery. All the paperwork is done ahead of time, no haggling over price, etc. Its not perfect but the younger generation prefers this model over dealing with a guy in finance trying to sell you undercoating.
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Old 08-16-2022, 06:14 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by digitalfutur View Post
And for everyone who doesn't believe in EV "subsidies", almost all the Insterstate, state, county, and municipal roads were paid for by the government through taxation.

So please do spare us the hypocrisy of ignoring "subsidies" when it suits you personally (by driving on those roads), and opposing them when it doesn't.
The ****ing irony here is thick enough to build a house on...most of road funding, and in fact all of highway/interstate/fed controlled funding comes from a tax on GAS AND DIESEL. The ****ing EV guys are using roads for free and getting paid by the .gov to buy their cars in the first place.
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Old 08-16-2022, 06:18 PM   #106
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same sentiment as always

eff EVs.

i think i'm going to gen v swap a c4 anyway.
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Old 08-16-2022, 06:22 PM   #107
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I worked for GM for 30 years and there is little you can tell me about GM's legal department that I haven't witnessed.

GM used to sell hundreds of thousands of Cavaliers at huge losses every year just to buy enough CAFE credits to allow them to sell the volume of high profit vehicles they were selling. The idea that they will be be able to actually sell a $30k Equinox at a profit (again assuming this isn't a fake number created with tax credits, etc.) given today's EV economics is hard to believe. I believe they are losing money on the Bolts as well. If true this is a recycled marketing strategy.

And how specific are they being about the content of this "$30k Equinox"? You can buy an Equinox pretty cheap today if you get a base model with few options. An equivalent electric model with a short range battery, selling for $30k, would meet the commitment w/o being something most people would actually buy. Now that is also a GM tried and true marketing strategy.
When GM introduced C4 Corvette in 1983 ('84 MY) the run-up for months was that the new Corvette would be priced under $25,000. Ironically, my roommate and I each ordered cars at our local dealership on the same day. He had always planned to mod his so he ordered a base car, no options, white with red cloth interior. $24,995 before tax and license. I ordered a two-tone blue with leather interior, power windows and locks, air, and whatever else. My car came in in like 6 - 8 weeks. Months after ordering his car and continuously being told it had not been placed in build schedule, he changed his order to include power windows and locks and his car came in in about 3 weeks. We later learned that GM had already exceeded the number of cars it intended to build with roll-up windows. For 1985 power windows were made standard and the base price went way up.

Fast forward to 2019. GM introduced C8 Corvette with a long run-up saying that the new Corvette would be priced under $60,000. The C8 launched at $59,995 before tax and license. For 2021 the base price went way up. Good luck finding a base car, no options. Expect similar treatment with Equinox EV. There will likely be a few unicorn base / no options units built at $29,995 before tax and license.
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Old 08-16-2022, 06:27 PM   #108
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Let's get to the heart of the matter, the government far outstepping its bounds. The 2012 EPA mandates courtesy of Obama were a joke foisted upon the too stupid public to see the writing on the walls. Sure it will save you $200 in gas a year, but the car will cost 1200 more, then 1800, then 2500 more and on and on. The EPA should have had its wings clipped a long time ago. No one bothers to read bills and the stupidity contained therein and that is a problem. There is more than one way to tax people and that is arbitralily increasing their costs for the same purpose. So once again the sleeping public has had the wool pulled over their eyes once again and the middle class pay the price.

There is no reality where resisting change and progress will keep you living the quality of life you remember having when the world is changing that supported that reality at that time. It's not a stance that sustains anything, it just results in decline, because everyone else is moving on. And if the US is not leading, whatever wealth generated from being on top is going to go to another country. We can't be conservative with technological progress unless we want to switch places with the kind of life you read about in developing countries.

We have a wealth gap issue in the US that is contributing more to the middle class being screwed than any epa policy. Blaming the epa because the middle class is being priced out of what it means to be middle class is silly. The richest 1% in the US gained 6.5 trillion (gained) last year. That's an increase in their wealth that could pay every single citizen in this country like 20k usd. Would you be doing significantly better with an extra 20k post-tax income? But lets attack a policy that is trying to get rid of parasitic costs to the welfare of the public instead of what is actually causing the source of why you feel poorer now than you used to be.

The only wool being put over the eyes of the middle class is that these pro-social efforts that are dragging corporations that only care about short term profit into practices that benefit the public in the long term are what's wrong and not the ever widening disparity between the ultra rich and everyone else.
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Old 08-16-2022, 06:39 PM   #109
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Ev prices will drop after the infrastructure is in place and all debts have been paid. It’s a lot simpler than people are making it out to be. And if a stupid Plaid can beat a zl1 then I can not wait to see what an ev zl1 will do ooooh baby!
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Old 08-16-2022, 06:46 PM   #110
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Ev prices will drop after the infrastructure is in place and all debts have been paid. It’s a lot simpler than people are making it out to be. And if a stupid Plaid can beat a zl1 then I can not wait to see what an ev zl1 will do ooooh baby!
Just gotta hope that not enough people get to see for themselves or the first idiot who plaids their way into the dumb bystanders at the cars and coffee they showed up to will sue that ability right out of the cars.

Unfortunately, driving tests would not be able to weed out the dumbest drivers that would find themselves owning such a vehicle and it would ruin the fun for everyone else. There's going to have to be an acceleration cap for the cars most people end up being able to own, cuz i doubt they'll make the driving test harder.
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Old 08-16-2022, 06:50 PM   #111
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Just gotta hope that not enough people get to see for themselves or the first idiot who plaids their way into the dumb bystanders at the cars and coffee they showed up to will sue that ability right out of the cars.

Unfortunately, driving tests would not be able to weed out the dumbest drivers that would find themselves owning such a vehicle and it would ruin the fun for everyone else. There's going to have to be an acceleration cap for the cars most people end up being able to own, cuz i doubt they'll make the driving test harder.
We already have Teslas plowing into houses while "drivers" relocate to the back seat or watch porn on the big tablet.
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Old 08-16-2022, 06:54 PM   #112
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As of right now the order banks for new EVs like the Ford Lightning are selling out but we will see how it goes long term. This isn't a wealth issue either and it is hilarious how the anti EV crowd and pro Ev crowd think the opposing group is too small and won't make things difficult. The thing is this is not Europe and there is more than enough resistance to EVs that unlike Europe and what California wants ICE will remain especially in pickup trucks way past what they desire. I have delved long and hard from many different sources from this issue. I will say this though the V8 performance vehicle is probably numbered so get your Camaro, Challenger and Mustang now while you still can. There is actually places available like near me that will help you to keep it running for a long time.
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