[SONiC MOjO]

Good to know, Thank you for all the info

[ember1205]

I'm curious why people are running octane boosters "as a safety net"?

My understanding is that this engine, like so many today, has sensors to detect knock and change the timing accordingly. Since many dyno numbers will specify the octane of the fuel being used, it would stand to reason (in my mind) that raising the octane level would allow the engine to advance the timing, and increase power output, without engine damage.

But...

The amount of power gain in a stock motor from a few octane increase seems like it would be negligible and effectively 'useless' in street driving.

The car should have its own "safety net" built in with the sensors that can adjust timing accordingly to prevent any detected knock from doing engine damage.

Am I missing something here?

[RyanR623]

Anyone else now getting Boostane ads on the forum? Crazy how advertising software works. And creepy.

[ZL1 1LE]

Originally Posted by HCI2000SS

Yep absolutely. From my understanding (and I may be wrong of course) the only way to effectively raise octane from these kind of products is to have the MMT, and with that it leaves a orange residue that fouls plugs and sensors out faster. Maybe Boostane has found a way around that IDK

Race Gas definitely leaves an orange residue on the exhaust tips.

Per their web site:

WILL RACE GAS HARM MY O2 SENSORS OR CATALYTIC CONVERTER?
No. RACE GAS does not contain lead or other additives that can harm O2 sensors or catalytic converters.

I NOTICED THAT MY SPARK PLUGS HAVE AN ORANGE DUST ON THEM AFTER RUNNING RACE-GAS IN MY TANK. ARE MY PLUGS FOULED OR SCORCHED?
No! The dust you are seeing is the bi-product of burning fuel with manganese. This dust does not affect plug or exhaust components in any way.

If you are old enough to remember burning leaded fuel, or look at the plugs from someone burning leaded racing fuel, you will see a greyish white dust on the plugs and exhaust pipes. This is the bi-product burning leaded fuels. This dust has no effect on plug performance and will not damage the engine either.

To insure that this dust doesn’t affect engine performance we have been burning fuel blended with RACE-GAS in many cars for the last 3 years. We have added RACE-GAS to every fill up in a Toyota, BMW, VW, Porsche and a Ford for 3 years with no negative effect on the plugs, catalytic converter or O2 sensors. In addition we have 3 race cars with an average of 140 race hours on them using RACE-GAS and have seen no issues. Lastly Tesar Engineering ran 3 Mustangs in the 2,000 Carrera Pan Americano using Mexican pump gas blended with RACE-GAS with no problems and great performance, (See the Testimonials page to read the full story).

[RyanR623]

Originally Posted by ember1205

I'm curious why people are running octane boosters "as a safety net"?

My understanding is that this engine, like so many today, has sensors to detect knock and change the timing accordingly. Since many dyno numbers will specify the octane of the fuel being used, it would stand to reason (in my mind) that raising the octane level would allow the engine to advance the timing, and increase power output, without engine damage.

But...

The amount of power gain in a stock motor from a few octane increase seems like it would be negligible and effectively 'useless' in street driving.

The car should have its own "safety net" built in with the sensors that can adjust timing accordingly to prevent any detected knock from doing engine damage.

Am I missing something here?

Safety net against losing power due to retarding the timing. Plus you don't want your engine knocking even if the car can eventually detect it.

[ZL1 1LE]

Originally Posted by RyanR623

Safety net against losing power due to retarding the timing. Plus you don't want your engine knocking even if the car can eventually detect it.

Right, the detection occurs after the fact.

[ember1205]

Originally Posted by RyanR623

Safety net against losing power due to retarding the timing. Plus you don't want your engine knocking even if the car can eventually detect it.

Originally Posted by ZL1 1LE

Right, the detection occurs after the fact.

However...

This can occur in MOST engines at some point on a more subdued level. And it doesn't cause damage. In order to damage an engine, it has to be strong/heavy and for an extended period. In other words, by the time it could cause damage, the sensors have detected it and corrected the timing for it.

If something occurs to where the timing gets retarded for significant power loss for more than a brief period of time, you likely have much bigger issues.

I've run vehicles with high compression motors and have never added octane booster. No matter how hard I drove them, they never sputtered once as I always made sure to fill up from a place where the fuel was turned over relatively quickly and didn't end up with water in it. Additionally, I won't fill up anywhere that there's a refill truck actively unloading as that can stir stuff up in the underground tank that can end up in the fuel tank.

If you end up with water or sediment in the tank, that's a much bigger issue that an octane booster isn't going to help with.

[NiteBlitz]

Originally Posted by RyanR623

Anyone else now getting Boostane ads on the forum? Crazy how advertising software works. And creepy.

Using an ad blocker, but I bet if I turn it off it will pop up.

[NiteBlitz]

The performance shop that changed out my clutch recommended I put in some boostane after every fill up, just in case the gas is not at 93 octane level as advertised. They told me to just stick with shell V power, since they are more reliable than other branded gas. Not sure if true, that was their statement. However my question is if I say increase the octane level to say about 98 or something, will I see a performance upgrade.

Car was tuned, has an upper pully (Grip tech 2.30) and has a Roto Fab cold air intake.

Any benefits of increasing octane or will it be negligible

Thanks

Edit* Car was tuned by previous owner, so I have no idea of the tune*

[ZL1 1LE]

Originally Posted by NiteBlitz

The performance shop that changed out my clutch recommended I put in some boostane after every fill up, just in case the gas is not at 93 octane level as advertised. They told me to just stick with shell V power, since they are more reliable than other branded gas. Not sure if true, that was their statement. However my question is if I say increase the octane level to say about 98 or something, will I see a performance upgrade.

Car was tuned, has an upper pully (Grip tech 2.30) and has a Roto Fab cold air intake.

Any benefits of increasing octane or will it be negligible

Thanks

Edit* Car was tuned by previous owner, so I have no idea of the tune*

It would have to be retuned to experience the gains from the higher octane assuming that the current tune is maximized for 93 octane.

[SFV1LE]

Originally Posted by ember1205

However...

This can occur in MOST engines at some point on a more subdued level. And it doesn't cause damage. In order to damage an engine, it has to be strong/heavy and for an extended period. In other words, by the time it could cause damage, the sensors have detected it and corrected the timing for it.

If something occurs to where the timing gets retarded for significant power loss for more than a brief period of time, you likely have much bigger issues.

I've run vehicles with high compression motors and have never added octane booster. No matter how hard I drove them, they never sputtered once as I always made sure to fill up from a place where the fuel was turned over relatively quickly and didn't end up with water in it. Additionally, I won't fill up anywhere that there's a refill truck actively unloading as that can stir stuff up in the underground tank that can end up in the fuel tank.

If you end up with water or sediment in the tank, that's a much bigger issue that an octane booster isn't going to help with.

On a stock motor, a mechanical, electrical or software issue that affects timing, spark strength, AFR or boost can create a quick detonation event that can destroy a motor in seconds--that is rare but it happens.

With a re-tuned motor it's a much bigger problem, lots of tuners out there that make power but also create un-checked knock or high EGTs that damage the motor quickly or over time, usually resulting in piston or rod bearing damage.

Running a bleeding edge tune and/or low octane gas knowingly or unknowingly over time can create damage that will eventually lead to piston or bearing failure. When knock occurs it sends shock-waves that hammer the piston at the wrong point in the cycle, effectively smashing down through the piston on rod bearings and distorting/wearing them until they, or the piston, fail, melt, cylinders crack, etc.

Beware of tuning problems, it's a risky mod. Does the HP Tuners software include a feature like knock-CEL flashing? ie. on many tuned imports your CEL light blinks when knock is detected, with flash rate increasing for more severe knock counts.

[Heartbreaker]

Originally Posted by NiteBlitz

The performance shop that changed out my clutch recommended I put in some boostane after every fill up, just in case the gas is not at 93 octane level as advertised. They told me to just stick with shell V power, since they are more reliable than other branded gas. Not sure if true, that was their statement. However my question is if I say increase the octane level to say about 98 or something, will I see a performance upgrade.

Car was tuned, has an upper pully (Grip tech 2.30) and has a Roto Fab cold air intake.

Any benefits of increasing octane or will it be negligible

Thanks

Edit* Car was tuned by previous owner, so I have no idea of the tune*

You pickup 25 to 30 hp going from 93 to 100 octane. This is a proven fact and a cheap 30 hp gain.

[ember1205]

Originally Posted by Heartbreaker

You pickup 25 to 30 hp going from 93 to 100 octane. This is a proven fact and a cheap 30 hp gain.

If you're claiming that adding octane boost to every tank is the "cheap" HP gain, I disagree (at least in some circumstances).

Assuming you're spending $10 per tank, and paying EVERY tank, 100 tankfuls (assume that this will get you somewhere around 30,000 miles which is generous) is $1000 out of your pocket and NO return on that expense when you trade / sell since it's up to the new owner to continue to add that extra $10/tank.

As the octane boost products increase in price, that investment goes up even more.

Any items done for improvement are best done as a one-time expense, not recurring.

[radz28]

Originally Posted by SFV1LE

On a stock motor, a mechanical, electrical or software issue that affects timing, spark strength, AFR or boost can create a quick detonation event that can destroy a motor in seconds--that is rare but it happens.

With a re-tuned motor it's a much bigger problem, lots of tuners out there that make power but also create un-checked knock or high EGTs that damage the motor quickly or over time, usually resulting in piston or rod bearing damage.

Running a bleeding edge tune and/or low octane gas knowingly or unknowingly over time can create damage that will eventually lead to piston or bearing failure. When knock occurs it sends shock-waves that hammer the piston at the wrong point in the cycle, effectively smashing down through the piston on rod bearings and distorting/wearing them until they, or the piston, fail, melt, cylinders crack, etc.

Beware of tuning problems, it's a risky mod. Does the HP Tuners software include a feature like knock-CEL flashing? ie. on many tuned imports your CEL light blinks when knock is detected, with flash rate increasing for more severe knock counts.

You can flash a car with HPTuners and leave any and all OEM CELs they way they are from the factory, or you can manipulate them to the point they don't come on at all, even though there is an actual error. Like you already said - if you're on a tune, unless it's a canned one, it's probably run to knock limit. So if you get a bad tank of gas, you may end up running in the low octane table, best case scenario, and running less power. The OEM tune is calibrated for 93-octane (it says it right in the manual), so people on 91 will likely be getting some knock and lose power through the PCM pulling advance.

MMT is the additive that gives the fuel it's knock resistance (very simply). If the product has enough MMT to be effective (i.e. Race-gas, Boostane, Torco), then you'll likely be getting the orange soot. If it doesn't have MMT, it probably is not really going to effect your octane much, if anything. MMT, apparently, also is what kills sensors and emissions devices. The products I listed above all have higher MMT-content than most other products claiming to increase octane, and there are other product lines, within these brands, which have even higher MMT-content, allowing more resistance. This additional MMT-is also why you won't find (not that I've seen anyways) statements saying these products are guaranteed not to impact emissions devices or anything. I'm fine with that. O2 sensors and even cats', are too big a deal to have to deal with replacing, IMO.

To me, where I am, if I were to tune on 91 (the highest common at a pump in CA) to the knock limit, I'd use any of those 3-products to get to about 93-95 octane and call it good. I get knock right now, on stock (sort-of)- type advance, so a little splash of Boostane or can of Race-gas is no biggie to me.