[Petrol Head]

Originally Posted by MackSteelPrivateEye

Off the top of your head, how many people know if they still make the Malibu, or the Impala? Who knows what they look like from memory? Probably few do or can. That sucks! Terrible branding and marketing. In fact how many people recognize the vehicles by name in the commercial? You know the Vette, maybe the pickup, but the other sh!t is just a passing whim. Marketing sucks. Who here remembers when someone said Impala, Nova, Chevelle, etc...we knew exactly what they looked like and what they were. Even your grandmother knew.

GM had stellar marketing all the way through the 1990s. The "Heartbeat of America" campaign could have gone on forever as far as I'm concerned, it does not get any better for Camaro advertising than that.

In fact, when I bought my car I spent about a half hour trying to figure out how to make that phrase fit into 7 letters for a custom plate and still make sense. Couldn't do it. Settled for a standard issue tag.

Bob Seagar himself was on one of the morning talk shows talking about how he was so proud to have GM use "Like a Rock" for the Silverados..... not because HE made money, but being a native Detroiter he said they analyzed the data from running that campaign and they estimate it contributed to an extra million Silverados being produced in the 20 years they used it. So he said that meant more work for the people on the assembly lines, more jobs, more overtime for those families. THAT'S America. THAT'S what some people with all their "degrees" completely ignore or are too educated to understand.

Funny how the advertising started to royally suck just as the company was diving towards bankruptcy.

Coincidence? Hmmmmmmmm

[Petrol Head]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior85

I get what you're saying, I just have trouble agreeing with the idea.

Not saying you're wrong, just that I dont see a reason that things shouldn't improve unless something else improves more.

Its like saying that towing and hauling capabilities shouldn't improve on pickups, because there's dually's and big rigs........ Or that you shouldnt get a pay raise for improved work performance, because people senior to you have not improved as much and you can't get paid more than them because they were their first and have a higher position than you.

Again, not trying to say that you are wrong, or disrespect your opinion... just trying to explain my view and why it is harder for me to agree with you,

A 1969 Camaro ZL1 was $7200. Adjusted for inflation that's $52,000 today. That is a reasonable price for what a ZL1 should sticker for today. If you loaded up a regular 1969 Camaro SS with every option available, before the ZL1 trim, it would top out at about $5,000. That's $35,000 today. Completely logical pricing on both ends for a Camaro SS.

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by UnknownJinX

Well then, give me an example of a car that gives me all 3 of them, using ZL1 1LE as a baseline (which lacks the interior). So basically, a brand new car with the same level of performance of ZL1 1LE, same price, and better interior. I am still waiting for you to give me an example.

Or maybe you couldn't find one because, just perhaps, it doesn't exist?

As I have said, this is a sports car. If you think Camaro interior is bad for $70k, I think you will have a heart attack when you see the interior of a Nissan GT-R.

Yeah Mazda has good interior but most of them are FWD(or FWD-based AWD) and the most powerful engine option is the 2.5T, which is a great engine for daily driving but it's not made to be a performance engine. Go back to when Mazda made real sports cars like FD RX-7. That interior is like C5 Corvette-level stuff. RWD inherently will cost more than a FWD to manufacture. And while we are at the $20k~$30k mark, go yell at Toyota and Nissan for the crappy interior on the 86 and 370Z, too. And make sure you don't leave Ford out with the Mustang. I am sure lots of their buyers are also complaining... Or are they?



Well okay I am not that minimalist. I am not ripping out the interior for weight reduction.

I say that, given what's available on the market right now, I think Camaro's interior isn't bad.

I actually place some value on interior features. The 2SS is pretty good on that front with heated/ventilated seats, blindspot monitoring, etc. What I don't mind the fact that everything is hard plastic too much. I daily drive my car, but I don't live in the car so it's whatever. And it's fun enough that I don't even notice if it's hard plastic or some exotic wood carved out of a 1000-year old tree.

Someone who cares about interior of a $70k car will not be looking at a Camaro, or any pony car, or heck, any sports car to start with. They would probably be hitting a Mercedes or Lexus dealer instead.

This ^^^

I have to wonder if Number 3 would show up to drive at a track day wearing a tux instead of a racing suit or at least jeans and a cotton long-sleeve shirt.

That does seem comparable to the way he'd prefer to dress his seriously-track-capable car . . .


Norm

[Petrol Head]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

This ^^^

I have to wonder if Number 3 would show up to drive at a track day wearing a tux instead of a racing suit or at least jeans and a cotton long-sleeve shirt.

That does seem comparable to the way he'd prefer to dress his seriously-track-capable car . . .


Norm

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by genxer

What are the specific beefs with the ZL1 interior though?

I do lean toward the Camaro having to tangentially compete with the warm hatches, but definitely not emulate them.
And I don't consider myself investment savvy. Just keep tabs on some stuff.

The issue is that it's the same basic interior as a near entry level Camaro.

He used the ram as an example. A fully loaded Ram is still just as capable as a fully loaded Silverado, but the Ram interior is way different in a loaded trim compared to a work truck. A fully loaded ram and fully loaded silverado are in similar price ranges.

He is stating it could be better, it would not cost a ton more, because GM is very capable of doing it.

I get what #3 is saying, I also get what everyone else is saying. Some people don't care, others do. I see #3s posts as wanting the GM to do the best they can.

[UnknownJinX]

Originally Posted by shaffe

The issue is that it's the same basic interior as a near entry level Camaro.



He used the ram as an example. A fully loaded Ram is still just as capable as a fully loaded Silverado, but the Ram interior is way different in a loaded trim compared to a work truck. A fully loaded ram and fully loaded silverado are in similar price ranges.



He is stating it could be better, it would not cost a ton more, because GM is very capable of doing it.



I get what #3 is saying, I also get what everyone else is saying. Some people don't care, others do. I see #3s posts as wanting the GM to do the best they can.

For a truck, I get it, and Number 3 is able to provide an example that makes me go "Touché", but that's not comparable to a sports car.

Most "reasonably priced" sports car have pretty basic interiors, even some expensive ones. Out of the complaints like visibility, interior space, etc., this is the one I can't wrap my head around.

It's easy to confuse sports car and GT for some, but the former is more about performance while the latter puts more emphasis on interior and comfort.

[genxer]

Any four seat car should, should, have a more difficult time being nimble than say, a Vette or Supra. In that sense, winning on interior trim could be another comparison plus besides horsepower. Kind of similar to a base Camaro having better weight balance and power than similar price hot hatches with a better interior.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by UnknownJinX

For a truck, I get it, and Number 3 is able to provide an example that makes me go "Touché", but that's not comparable to a sports car.

Most "reasonably priced" sports car have pretty basic interiors, even some expensive ones. Out of the complaints like visibility, interior space, etc., this is the one I can't wrap my head around.

It's easy to confuse sports car and GT for some, but the former is more about performance while the latter puts more emphasis on interior and comfort.

That's why I said I get what you are saying as well.

I think what he is really trying to hammer home is GM could, but they won't/haven't and it wouldn't add substantial cost. What I believe #3 is getting at without putting words in his mouth is that once you pass a certain price point a whole bunch of other factors besides performance get factored into people's buying decisions and Camaro should be able to rise to that.

Example - buddy of mine who all through out our childhood and teen years was all about american muscle. Got his first good paying job and went to get a SRT Challenger and ended up in a Inifinity because of the "luxury" appeal. To this day, he could afford any of the big 3 muscle cars if he wanted but when it comes time for him to get a new vehicle he looks at Mustangs/Camaros/Challengers and ends up in a "luxury" make instead. He knows the performance of the Big 3 would be better but the luxury is more worth it to him.

[Martinjlm]

I think C8 would be the best barometer for what GM could do with interiors at different price points. Look at the material choice differences from 1LT to 3LT, plus all the color variations and 3 seat choices. GM is able to make the interior go from fairly plain to what I would consider to be too far out there by offering a wide variety of material and color choices. Pretty much what BMW and Mercedes do too. At the relatively low volumes of Corvette and Camaro, there will not be structural differences in the IP, center stack, or console.

For full-size trucks like Ram with a couple hundred thousand units produced, or Silverado / Sierra that are that much plus tens of thousands of utilities, you can include structural options that eventually pay for themselves. Not for cars that sell in the low 5-digits volume.

[GearheadSS]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

I think C8 would be the best barometer for what GM could do with interiors at different price points. Look at the material choice differences from 1LT to 3LT, plus all the color variations and 3 seat choices. GM is able to make the interior go from fairly plain to what I would consider to be too far out there by offering a wide variety of material and color choices. Pretty much what BMW and Mercedes do too. At the relatively low volumes of Corvette and Camaro, there will not be structural differences in the IP, center stack, or console.

For full-size trucks like Ram with a couple hundred thousand units produced, or Silverado / Sierra that are that much plus tens of thousands of utilities, you can include structural options that eventually pay for themselves. Not for cars that sell in the low 5-digits volume.

IMO, the 1LT C8 proves that even in base trim, GM can make a nice interior. The C8 1LT is the nicest base Corvette interior ever.

[Road_Warrior85]

Originally Posted by Petrol Head

A 1969 Camaro ZL1 was $7200. Adjusted for inflation that's $52,000 today. That is a reasonable price for what a ZL1 should sticker for today. If you loaded up a regular 1969 Camaro SS with every option available, before the ZL1 trim, it would top out at about $5,000. That's $35,000 today. Completely logical pricing on both ends for a Camaro SS.

Before, I took you comments to strictly be that
1. The Camaro should not perform so similarly to a vette
2. The best camaro shouldnt perform better than the "worst" vette
3. The 5th gen Z28 was the peak level or performance that any manufacturer should try to achieve in a 2 +2 coupe.

Now you appear to be arguing that Camaros are overpriced relative to historical norms or trends,

This is an argument that I can 100000% agree with you on, however this is not Camaro thing. This issue applies across the board on almost every product we buy,

In what world should any 1500 Chevy/GMC Pickup cost more than a base model corvette? They did for 2020. Even being fully optioned out, its the basic half ton, everyday pickup. It isn't a 1 ton or a dually.

Its much like the wage debate. If you go back to 1969 and look at the gap between CEO pay and average employee pay and then follow it back to today, the employee pay has not grown very well at all, and the CEO pay has grown exponentially greater,
Soooooo many products we buy today grew in price in similar manners (had to make the extra profit somewhere to give to those CEOs).

It is amazing that we can get the supercar level of performance that we did, but the average new vehicle should not be equal in price to median US income

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

I think C8 would be the best barometer for what GM could do with interiors at different price points. Look at the material choice differences from 1LT to 3LT, plus all the color variations and 3 seat choices. GM is able to make the interior go from fairly plain to what I would consider to be too far out there by offering a wide variety of material and color choices. Pretty much what BMW and Mercedes do too. At the relatively low volumes of Corvette and Camaro, there will not be structural differences in the IP, center stack, or console.

For full-size trucks like Ram with a couple hundred thousand units produced, or Silverado / Sierra that are that much plus tens of thousands of utilities, you can include structural options that eventually pay for themselves. Not for cars that sell in the low 5-digits volume.

What he said ^

3LT interior is quite a bit nicer than the 1LT

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by shaffe

What he said ^

3LT interior is quite a bit nicer than the 1LT

Every time I price up a C8 I blow my budget on interior options. On one hand, I don’t NEED the extra stuff (hell, I don’t NEED a C8) but I know once I order and receive the car, there are things that can’t be changed, so better to order them up front. This is how Porsche, BMW, and Mercedes make their $$$.

[redcoats1976]

i own a 2015 RS(2LT).to be honest its probably the most luxurious car ive ever had.do you guys really want a camaro with genuine walnut burl dashboard and seats that massage your butt while you drive?