09-16-2019, 08:36 AM | #71 | |
Drives: 2013 C6Z06 Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: PA
Posts: 1,577
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The 12 step process you are referring to is really only difficult if you are removing the calipers and rotors to change the splash shield. The deflectors only have 3 bolts that can be easily changed out with only removing the wheels making it a very simple process. My point is why not run them for as cheap as they are? Last edited by TheRealJA105; 09-16-2019 at 08:46 AM. |
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09-16-2019, 05:14 PM | #72 |
Drives: around in circles few days a month Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 154
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I'm still running with all the nannies on. I'm not touching the PTM mode button. I planned to on the second session but one, my tires are close to chording and two, I could feel myself getting faster than the last day out. I know that sounds crazy without a lap timer but I really could tell.
My next event I'll have Apexi wheels(unless they change delivery date for the 100th time) with brand new SC 3Rs and a track alignment. I plan to run the PTM in sport mode. Any advice?
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09-17-2019, 05:57 PM | #73 | |
Drives: 2020 SS 1LE (previous: 2017 SS 1LE) Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Canada, eh!
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09-17-2019, 08:07 PM | #74 | |
Drives: 2020 SS 1LE (previous: 2017 SS 1LE) Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Canada, eh!
Posts: 5,091
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The real effort (and serious fun) begins when one soon reaches a plateau, thinking they are going as far as they can possibly go, yet a more experienced driver in the same car - is x seconds faster! That's when real learning starts to reach another level. And then it continues, hopefully for as long as the "career" does. To get the most out of the car, one has to feel the car's limits. Lest it is a guessing game at best and wrecking at worst (even with nannies on). There are other skills one has to develop with proper vision being the prime one imo. Without proper vision it is almost impossible to drive at a true limit. I can share some thoughts with you (if you like), but best to take it off line, as this thread is about a different subject altogether. Feel free to PM if interested. NB I am not a pro, but i have been at it for a while and have benefited and continue to benefit from ongoing learning from pro sources. All i can tell ya without a shadow of a doubt, that the greatest improvement in pace always comes from a driver skill vs any other aspect - bar none. This may sound somewhat melodramatic, but all it takes is to see a pro, drive circles around other drivers in much more capable cars. However, the same principle applies to us amateurs as well! And frankly, that's why i am completely content driving my car bone stock. But that's just me Cheers! |
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10-14-2019, 09:03 AM | #75 | |
corner barstool sitter
Drives: 08 Mustang GT, 19 WRX Join Date: Jul 2012
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Norm
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'08 GT coupe 5M (the occasional track toy)
'19 WRX 6M (the family sedan . . . seriously) |
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10-15-2019, 11:04 AM | #76 | |
Drives: 2020 SS 1LE (previous: 2017 SS 1LE) Join Date: Mar 2012
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One thing which is seems rather certain, is that the mass (car) gets decellarated in a shorter distance, hence my layman logic would suggest: same mass + shorter distance (because of higher mu) = more heat. Now maybe a pro would be able to somehow equalize it with superior braking technique, but given that many top pro teams dont seem to use high mu pads and given that for race teams and pro brake suppliers heat management is a top priority...i find it interesting that some amateurs reach for the top mu, while pros dont. I suspect retail marketing has a lot to do with it - perhaps by "experts" who havent spent a single day on a race track? Who knows. All i know is what pads boiled my fluid and lit my brakes on fire (a slight exaggeration here!) and which didnt. And what pads facilitated my PBs vs not. But obviously we all differ as drivers, use our cars differently and as such i respect others choices. Cheers! |
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10-15-2019, 04:57 PM | #77 | ||||
corner barstool sitter
Drives: 08 Mustang GT, 19 WRX Join Date: Jul 2012
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High-mu pads may ramp up their initial bite a little quicker because it takes a finite amount of time to build force at the pedal, so the high-mu pad friction surface skin-effect temperature might well be a bit higher all else held constant. But linear temperature distribution through the pad thickness and bulk temperature of the friction material (both being slower to respond) won't change as much, and pad surface temperature at the backing plate interface slowest of all. I don't remember if I kept any of my notes on this stuff, which included the documentation for a computer program written to do all the actual math involved. That's why I'm suspecting thermal conductivity rather than mu while understanding that it may not be possible to separate the two effects due to the specific materials necessary. Quote:
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A medium-high-mu pad (I'm going to say low 0.6's tops) actually feels pretty good on the street if you're up to the task of modulating them; lots of braking happening right away from less force at the pedal, and of course in any sane street driving you're not inputting anywhere near enough heat often enough to risk boiling even OE brake fluid regardless of the actual effect that makes it happen. Quote:
Norm
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'19 WRX 6M (the family sedan . . . seriously) |
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10-16-2019, 12:41 AM | #78 | |
Drives: 2020 SS 1LE (previous: 2017 SS 1LE) Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Canada, eh!
Posts: 5,091
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I can't profess to understand it nearly well enough to offer any further data, other than higher mu pads seem to heat up things in a hurry. Whether it is due to shorter stopping distances involved, or pad composition to achieve the mu - or a combo of both - no idea. Ive read a few papers from racing pad manufacturers and indeed heat management seems always a top of mind concern. Together with longevity, but those two go together - zero doubt - especially in enduro racing. Now amateur track events are sort of like an enduro imo. Albeit they may only last 30mins at a time, folks sure expect braking systems to last a while: several days for pads, about a season for rotors and a few years for calipers. Yet race teams chuck all of them after a single race...Heck, they chuck them all after each event, be it practice, qualy, etc. And for those that go with "full race" pads that's where a major disconnect happens as far as expectactions re longevity et al. IMO. |
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10-19-2019, 09:36 AM | #79 | |||
corner barstool sitter
Drives: 08 Mustang GT, 19 WRX Join Date: Jul 2012
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Especially at the HPDE level. Quote:
I did find that the XP12's didn't last as long as the 10's, no more than 2/3 as long even though mu was less than 10% higher. But at least the 12's weren't harsh as far as rotor wear or caliper issues were concerned, so I only got 'burned' on the pads themselves. I may take another look at the calipers that were running the 12's, since I stumbled across them a couple days ago. Norm
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10-20-2019, 12:07 AM | #80 |
Drives: 2020 SS 1LE (previous: 2017 SS 1LE) Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Canada, eh!
Posts: 5,091
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Ya, balancing pace vs cost can be an interesting game indeed! And empty one's wallet in a hurry
At this stage i am mainly about maximizing funometer. And this means seat time to me by and large. I still continue to make progress with my car bone stock, which clearly means it is not the car that's holding me back. Cheers! Last edited by TrackClub; 10-20-2019 at 08:29 AM. |
10-31-2019, 06:32 AM | #81 | |
Drives: 19 riverside blue metallic ss1le Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Long Island ny
Posts: 20
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Im thinking about running dtc60s next season, the hardest track i go to on brakes is watkins glen, besides there i spend alot of time at njmp lightning and limerock which arent hard on brakes, so my question is do you guys recommend running ti shims with the dtc60? |
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01-21-2020, 10:51 PM | #82 |
Drives: 2017 SS 1LE, 2016 1SS (previous) Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Metro-Detroit
Posts: 1,863
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I haven't seen this chart before and thought it useful to post up on, mainly becuse there seems to be a question on what the temperature vs. mu curve looks like on the Rabestos pads.
I found this searching about the web and wasn't sure if it was legitimate since the ST43 compound doesn't seem to follow the notion it is a low mu pad, averaging around .38 across it's operating range. However, I found a broken link for this chart leading to the Raybestos Facebook page. Beyond that, the chart does show up in Raybestos YouTube videos: https://www.brakepartsinc.com/raybes...formation.html I think the 0.38 number that gets thrown around comes from this chart, below. The "HOT 1200 F/Ave. Friction Mu" statement is confusing and doesn't seem to correlate to this more recent compound chart. |
01-21-2020, 11:57 PM | #83 | |
Drives: 2020 SS 1LE (previous: 2017 SS 1LE) Join Date: Mar 2012
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02-01-2020, 11:43 AM | #84 | |
Drives: SW 1SS 1LE / Jeep XJ Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: WPB,FL
Posts: 799
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How did they compare to OEM pads? I'm wondering if you somehow didn't get ST43s by accident. Compared to stock pads in my experience the ST43s allow for up to ~.25 G increase of decel and had zero fade issues at Sebring with them. I was able to turn lap after lap with the ST43s where stock was on the floor after one lap(maxed the brake bar on the PDR too ) Ofcourse driving style/preferences will be different person to person but just curious. |
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Tags |
brake pads, friction, temperature, tracking |
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