[IntegraR0064]

I just want to say that the connection between throttle pedal and engine is not something to worry about in the camaro if you want a pretty direct connection. All you have to do is hold the traction control button for a few seconds until it tells you stabilitrak is off. Then if you full throttle, it will 100% give you full throttle.

As for the rest...carry on.

[Xaxas]

Originally Posted by tlr3715

I thought we were having a pretty intelligent and insightful conversation. I have appreciated the different perspectives and thoughts. I don’t think we need to devolve this into cursing and calling each other stupid.

I get tire technology has improved. I acknowledged that in my first post. However, if it is true that tire tech has improved enough to keep a more narrow tire/HP ratio like we see now then why did myself and others who have posted here with recent cars confirm they have trouble with first gear acceleration grip. It may be stickier rubber but there is till not enough of it to get good 1st gear grip.

Now I don’t think we have to go crazy and put tires like steam rollers on these cars, but I do think the 305s should be standard with 345 for track packages. I think that would be an overall better experience. But just my opinion.

Maybe I’m a simple guy reminiscing of times when I was young and stupid and would roll race with my friends on cool 60 degree nights until 2:00 am. We would blast off like going into warp drive and it was a whole lot of fun. No spinning, or hopping, or feathering throttles, or having power reduced electronically. Simple fun that perhaps can’t be experienced anymore.

But it’s true there is other types of fun to have. Like at a track or oversteering around a corner and I can appreciate that as well.

In terms of track performance. Show me the car that went up a tire size and got slower lap times. Or one that went down a size and got better lap times. (With same tire type of course)

You are not wrong about tire size, but saying they're better because "of old times" and anecdotal experiences isn't worth much, here's testing different setup that show the changes is lap times and braking between different front/rear setups.



However there are way, WAY more considerations than "bigger = better", when engineering a car there are many things that go into it, NVH, chassis tuning, physical limitations, performance targets, driving characteristic in different scenarios... That's why developing a car takes hundreds of millions of dollars and several years.

Put 345 tires in the Camaro, suddenly unsprung mass increases, gotta change the suspension... Gotta physically change control arms, tune bushings, more front tire grip? Maybe the off the shelf EPS rack won't work anymore and it needs a different unit, maybe the car is not faster around the track but NVH is unbearable and it now aquaplanes more, etc... Some of this might not be true but you get the general idea, and this is my general understanding of engineering a car, imagine what goes on behind closed doors.

Then there's also cost, tire maintenance cost goes up waaaay too fast relative to smaller sizes, and at the end of the day Camaro costs up to $70k with all options, that ain't much, now tell people they gotta spend 3x the cost to buy and mount a tire, or having to look around for a tire shop that can mount tires that big.

You also mention roll racing, I believe the only car currently in production to have traction issues roll racing is a stock Hellcat because it has VERY bad and skinny tires, and a hilarious amount of torque, otherwise my car has most traction issue driving like a monkey on 1st gear, which is what I expect (and want) from american muscle.

And I bet you were having fun till one of your buddies sneezed and went full on the throttle, car inevitable spins because no stability control, tries to brake but the wheels lock up due to no ABS and then warps around a tree because of extremely lax safety standards back then, this may be all that fun on a drift patch (except the warping into a tree part) but I for one thank computers because they have improved cars by every metric.

[Katech_Zach]

There is always a tradeoff. I did not read 100% of the information on this thread, but going to a wider tire really doesn't change straight line traction too much. If you want to hook better, you need a softer sidewall, taller sidewall. When you do this, you ruin handling. So the width/horsepower ratio is not really a useful metric for straight-line traction/acceleration.

The suspension on these cars are stiff relatively speaking compared to most things on the road, having a stiff/planted car does not do you too well for acceleration either. Again, if you set the car up to hook, at a certain point you wont be able to handle.

I have 2 sets of tires/wheels for the rear of my ZL1 1LE. one is a factory 3R 325/30/19, the other is a MT ET Street R 325/35/18. The 3R can take a sweeper at over 120mph at Pitt Race when warm but will roast the tires through the first 3 gears on the street. The ET Street R's (same width) deadhook from a 5mph 1st gear roll, but are near unstable when cornering at 80mph cruising on the freeway.

Pick your poison, there are always sacrifices.

[tlr3715]

Thank you Xasax and Katech. This is great information to consider and really appreciate the considerations you have brought up. I say when I was young and foolish because I agree street racing is quite dangerous. Nothing ever happened to my fiends but we did see other people on occasion who would wreck their cars. Haven’t raced illegally in many years, I’ll leave that lesson for the younger people who often challenge me to learn.

I am happy to hear in a ZL1 you can get consistent grip when the tires are warm with 325 width tires from 5MPH. (With correct tire type anyway) I think that is fine and similar to what I was experiencing from the older cars I drove. I could not say that for the Mustang and SRT I drove. Tires would spin often in 1st even while moving. I would often just short shift to 2nd to not have to deal with all the tire drama. I think that is what I would like to see go away. The 275 width tires they are putting stock on most cars I think is not enough, but the 305+ on the special packages might be OK from what people have been posting, but have not driven one to confirm.

[cdrptrks]

The SS 1LE and ZL1 1LE track package tires are actually probably worse on the street when it is cool outside (especially for the first few miles) than the normal narrower tires on other Camaro trims because the tires on the 1LEs are designed to grip best on a road course where you are pulling a lot more g forces more frequently and for a much longer duration than you safely can on the street (which heats up the tires more compared to street driving).

[HemiDave]

Physics.

You need to go mid engine (like the C8) or all wheel drive with the modern performance car power output to get traction from a dig.

[tlr3715]

I also wanted to say I agree that you cannot just put wider tires on a car and expect it to perform optimally. Like others have stated the suspension systems on these cars are a science with every component both mechanical and electronic meant to work with each other through rigorous testing. So say GM did one day make 305 tires standard on an SS with 325+ for track models (in a magical world where Camaros would continue to be produced) they would have to re-design and calibrate the whole suspension. Completely get what people are saying about that.

[s346k]

must be the op's first 250+ hp car.

[tlr3715]

Nope. More like eighth. The 2006 Corvette was probably the grippiest of the cars I have owned. Was very impressed by that cars takeoff ability. I also owned another that had the LS3 engine with 436 HP that also had the same tire width has the 2006. It was not a Z51 and therefore had the all seasons which did not grip as well as the Supercar run flat tires the 2006 came with. Didn’t think it was fair to put that on the original list as it was the only one without summer rubber.

[Whitespeed]

I'm also not seeing hp vs tire width as a useful metric. Look at it from a practical perspective. The examples given in the first thread had an average ratio of ~0.8. To maintain that ratio on a 650hp ZL1, you'd need a 520mm or ~20" wide tire! Even the Bugatti Veyron has 'only' 365 width rear tires. Using the ratio metric means that size is under-tired for anything over 440hp.


Further, I haven't seen mention of what width really means with respect to traction. Contrary to popular belief, a wider tire doesn't mean that there is more rubber in contact with the road (friction is independent of surface area anyway). The contact surface area is more or less a function of the air pressure and weight of the vehicle. What the width of the tire affects is the shape of the contact area. A narrow tire will have a longer contact patch, and a wider tire will have wider contact patch. For the longer contact patch, the sidewall of the tire has to deflect more to form the contact patch. That repeated deflection as the car rolls down the road generates heat and when the heat exceeds the optimal range of the rubber compound, then friction rapidly drops off. The sidewall of a wider tire deflects less, and therefore generates less heat and maintains a more stable temperature. Of course, there are other factors as well, such as tread block size and rubber compound. But, ultimately, it's all about optimizing friction for a target operating temperature. As pointed out, tire technology has advanced considerably to manage that heat far better than simply resorting to ever-growing tire width.

[CHASLT1]

Originally Posted by tlr3715

Nope. More like eighth. The 2006 Corvette was probably the grippiest of the cars I have owned. Was very impressed by that cars takeoff ability. I also owned another that had the LS3 engine with 436 HP that also had the same tire width has the 2006. It was not a Z51 and therefore had the all seasons which did not grip as well as the Supercar run flat tires the 2006 came with. Didn’t think it was fair to put that on the original list as it was the only one without summer rubber.

Have had 3 C6's. First two came with them crappy Goodyear runflats that was like driving on glass. Just picked up a 2008 C6 that came with new Pilot sport A/S3+ runflats that are much better than the Goodyears and this car is stock other than a tune and it just wants to spin down low. My 2013 C6 that was modded had the non runflat version of the Pilot sports that did grip much better but would still spin easy from a roll.

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by HemiDave

Physics.

You need to go mid engine (like the C8) or all wheel drive with the modern performance car power output to get traction from a dig.

Yep, this is where we are at. The tire tech has improved as well as all of the aids to help, (traction control, launch control), but mid-engine, AWD and EV based systems are the solution if you want significant improvements.

That said, I would rather have a RWD vehicle where you can spin the tires and kick the tail out when you want. My Tesla is boring in this regard. It just grips and goes with no drama, effective but boring IMO.

[tlr3715]

I agree the older tire/HP ratios are most likely too aggressive for modern rubber, but don’t think 275 is it. I think this was a direction taken to save money and perhaps increase MPG. I also understand the physics behind diminishing returns of going beyond a certain tire width in terms of actual grip performance due to friction, heat, and other factors. But I don’t believe 305 or even 325 are it. If that were the case they would not have moved up to 345 width tires for the new Corvette Z06. If they found moving past the 305 base tires didn’t improve grip and track performance, they would not spend the money to include wider ones in the package.

It also occurred to me that we need to factor in gear ratios in this thought process as well. I remember some of the older cars I drove had some pretty tall gears which of course would translate to better 1st gear acceleration grip. I have noticed a trend supported by reviews of drivers preferring more aggressive ratios in the lower gears to get better power multiplier and around town throttle response. So again having poorer 1st gear acceleration grip may be a side-effect of changing consumer demand over time.

This is quite interesting as more aggressive gear ratios generally result in poorer MPG. I also think there is consumer pressure to move toward body styles that are less aerodynamic with more downforce which again decreases MPG performance. Basically putting pressure on manufacturers to find better MPG in other creative ways like skip shift, cylinder deactivation, and even perhaps keeping tire width less than optimal.

[LT1gen6]

More tires. When do we want them? (Not) now!