[arpad_m]

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

I would agree, but the group that just does quarter mile tracking vs those that take their car to a closed loop track are drastically different in size. So how much does the track performance matter vs the quarter mile straight line?

at which point, track performance is not really relevant to most people who are in the comparing car performance crowd.

Even disregarding track prowess, some Tesla models don't like multiple quarter mile runs either.

Not that this would be an inherent shortcoming with all EVs, of course, but it does seem to be a problem with the most popular brand. An SS or ZL1 that has no known issues will run the same quarter mile time over and over again.

[UnknownJinX]

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

You were replying to a post i was replying to about how ev's were a status symbol for the rich. Which tried to reinforce the idea that it was because they're much more expensive - which implies that you agree with the poster i was responding to. Otherwise why make the comment? my reply is that if you think electric cars are a status symbol (which is what the poster said) then you have to agree that the alternative that they prefer (v8 powered muscle cars) are just as much of a status symbol. I didn't say I believe everyone with an SS drives it for a status symbol, just that you can't state that ev's are status symbols without lumping in any car you think is unnecessarily expensive and impractical.

fyi,
You dont need the highest end model 3 to match SS performance. Any of the dual engine trims (50-55k) do. The performance trim surpass the SS and surpass the ZL1. With sub 3 second 0-60. I wasn't bothering to include that (or the zl1).

If you didn't agree with the poster i was responding to, then great, but you replied like you did and i'm not doing background checks between each post to make sure they're keeping track of the convo and not just cherry picking some aspect of it.

edit: and " IMO something counts a status symbol if you bought it because it's expensive or it is a famous brand, you have zero understanding on how it actually works, and you make fun of people who can't afford it or don't want to use it."
A status symbol is just something that allows you to show others you're better than they are without having to say it directly. V8 muscle cars have been used as such in their own communities for years, it's not a secret that it's common to hear about v4/v6's not being real and only v8's are real versions of (camaro, mustang, etc). The only purpose of that is to elevate your status among the rest. Any expensive car can be a status symbol to someone who cares about cars. Status symbols have to be recognized by the "lower class" in order to work. Are tesla owners going around and throwing their teslas in non-tesla drivers faces? Or are are we being a bit defensive? I would rank bmw drivers higher than tesla drivers in terms of driving something simply to show off how well off better people they are than others. Tesla drivers have to at least have all of the quality control issues they've had to stick thru hurting their position as well as geographical limitations. Either way we're all making a statement and using our vehicles as status symbols to someone because we were able to get something a lot of people can't and chose it vs lesser options.

You have to realize that, on some level, that even cults tell Tesla fans that they need to chill. Tesla owners have a notorious reputation for getting into your face because you don't drive a Tesla, and that's not made up. Not a lot of them are driving enthusiasts in the same sense as most people are here on this forum(or most other car forums). I will say that I refuse to buy a Tesla ever for just that specific reason. Not all EVs, just Tesla. The potato QC is just icing on the disgusting cult cake.

Porsches are also very expensive cars, except the owners I came across on tracks are very friendly people that also just care about driving enjoyment. Of course, we know that Porsche can be notorious for the whole "porcupine has pricks on the outside" thing, but I would say that at least the 911 and 718 communities have a good chunk of driving enthusiasts I can relate to.

And I am way past the whole "V8 real muscle" thing. The only car I apply that on is the Dodge Challenger V6, but that's more because the V6 Challenger is so pathetically slow that even a 2.0T/V6 Honda Accord, V6 Camry, and the new Miata can spank it in a straight line, and we all know that Challengers are not exactly known for great cornering. The non-V8 Camaro nowadays is pretty great. Lots of people here know that even Randy Pobst picked up a Camaro 2.0T 1LE. That's how good it is. I agree it's a problem in the pony car community, though.

If you want some grasp about how driving enthusiasts think, take your Camaro to an Autocross event. It's not very expensive, doesn't really need too much special preparation and you can do it with any car as long as it's functioning properly and it's not too tall(SUV or truck). Just make sure you grab a proper helmet and that's really about it. You will see people with all sorts of cars there, from old beat-up Golf to new Porsches. And you know what? No one judges each other on what they drive. I don't go up to a Porsche owner and assumes it's a status symbol for the owner. People have a good time together because we see past it. We are all there for the fun and driving enjoyment.

You can't make everyone happy. Sure, my Camaro SS can be seen as a status symbol to a guy in an old Civic, but the old Civic can be seen as a status symbol to a guy who can only afford a bicycle, and the bicycle can be seen as a status symbol to a guy who can only afford to walk, and the legs on that walking person can be seen as a status symbol to a disabled person... So what, we should all push ourselves around in wheelchairs because it's the least option? There is zero need to feel bad about something you own just because it's better, or you'd be weeping all day.

Originally Posted by Hops

I really don't like generalizing 0-60 as 'performance'. It's a very narrow aspect of performance. The SS and 1le Camaro's were designed for track use. When considering the charging logistics, and the track mode performance hit a model 3 takes after reaching steady state, the performance envelop of a SS is far greater than any model 3.

Now that's a great way to trigger the C8 Corvette fanboys, ha.

I would love to see Model 3 perform on a track and talk to an actual owner about it, but alas, I don't have that opportunity, and I doubt I will ever have that opportunity.

Any 0-60 time below 5 seconds are just bragging rights for the most part. I don't do stoplight drag races because I don't want tickets.

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

I would agree, but the group that just does street racing vs those that take their car to a closed loop track are drastically different in size. So how much does the track performance matter vs the street racing straight line?

at which point, track performance is not really relevant to most people who are in the comparing car performance crowd.

FIFY. Let's not kid ourselves here.

And Autocrossing is just as affordable as organized drag strip days from what I have looked up.

Originally Posted by arpad_m

Even disregarding track prowess, some Tesla models don't like multiple quarter mile runs either.

Not that this would be an inherent shortcoming with all EVs, of course, but it does seem to be a problem with the most popular brand. An SS or ZL1 that has no known issues will run the same quarter mile time over and over again.

Man, Porsches are cool. Reminds me of how the PDK can hold up launches after launches, and at very high RPM, too, because of the MR/RR setup.

[cellsafemode]

Auto crossing may not be super expensive, but it is less accessible than drag races and i can't recall the last time I've seen threads online comparing course times and not quarter mile times outside of the ring in official publications.

[FarmerFran]

I cannot find the video but the funny thing is, Tesla cannot race hot or cold.

It was a Trackhawk vs a X, The guy had to wait - 20 minutes? for the batteries to warm up to race.

I know, it might be a rare occasion, and who the hell is racing that cold, but still funny.

[Hops]

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

I would agree, but the group that just does quarter mile tracking vs those that take their car to a closed loop track are drastically different in size. So how much does the track performance matter vs the quarter mile straight line?

at which point, track performance is not really relevant to most people who are in the comparing car performance crowd.

How do you figure the straight line crowd is that much bigger? I've only been to the drag strip once, and that was over 10 years ago, it wasn't my thing so i don't have a feel for how big it is. I do see plenty of Camaros at TrackNights, it's the 4th most popular there, just behind the Mustang in numbers:

https://www.scca.com/articles/201449...n-the-rearview



I do think track performance matters more the 1/4 mile, because the 6 gen Camaro wasn't designed to be a straight line car. I know i'm going ad nauseam here, but the alpha platform benchmarks the bmw e46, GM openly warranties track use, it has good front camber adjust-ability, it needs nothing but a fluid change to go for hours on the track straight from the showroom floor.

[FarmerFran]

Originally Posted by Hops

How do you figure the straight line crowd that much bigger? I've only been to the drag strip once, and that was over 10 years ago, it wasn't my thing so i don't have a feel for how big it is. I do see plenty of Camaros at TrackNights, it's the 4th most popular there, just behind the Mustang in numbers:

https://www.scca.com/articles/201449...n-the-rearview



I do think track performance matters more the 1/4 mile, because the 6 gen Camaro wasn't designed to be a straight line car. I know i'm going ad nauseam here, but the alpha platform benchmarks the bmw e46, GM openly warranties track use, it has good front camber adjust-ability, it needs nothing but a fluid change to go for hours on the track straight from the showroom floor.

When I lived in the Peoples Republic of Maryland - we all lived a 1/4 miles at a time!

75/80
Cecil
Capitol
MIR

They were packed all the time.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by arpad_m

Even disregarding track prowess, some Tesla models don't like multiple quarter mile runs either.

Not that this would be an inherent shortcoming with all EVs, of course, but it does seem to be a problem with the most popular brand. An SS or ZL1 that has no known issues will run the same quarter mile time over and over again.

I posted this a while ago in a different thread.

Tesla has since fixed this with Plaid software download. It still degrades but it's much closer to the Porsche.

[Hops]

Originally Posted by FarmerFran

When I lived in the Peoples Republic of Maryland - we all lived a 1/4 miles at a time!

75/80
Cecil
Capitol
MIR

They were packed all the time.

I've only been to the old dominion speedway in virginia before it closed. I got the bug for amateur motorsports there.... but not for drag racing. After my race, i did a nice power slide (by accident) at the turn around at the end of the strip. I thought that was way more fun than the drag race...LOL And it was funny, a couple years later i participated in an autocross in the parking lot at the same drag strip. I don't mean to make fun of drag racing, i respect it, and can see how one can really get into when you see the results of modding as a single measure of time!

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by Crushin_LT1

This is also not the venue and I urge you to take appropriate precaution to ensure you are adequately managing your risk and following applicable laws.

FWIW, I do exactly that.

I've got plenty of other reasons for not wanting to use uber/lyft that have nothing to do with the covid. Covid simply makes uber/lyft even less desirable.


Norm

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by Hops

I've only been to the old dominion speedway in virginia before it closed. I got the bug for amateur motorsports there.... but not for drag racing. After my race, i did a nice power slide (by accident) at the turn around at the end of the strip. I thought that was way more fun than the drag race...LOL And it was funny, a couple years later i participated in an autocross in the parking lot at the same drag strip. I don't mean to make fun of drag racing, i respect it, and can see how one can really get into when you see the results of modding as a single measure of time!

I can totally see that. I used to be the weekend warrior going to test n tune just go down the strip. I can see how that can get old to people quick. What gets drag racing really exciting is when you are racing in an actual event.

[FarmerFran]

Originally Posted by shaffe

I can totally see that. I used to be the weekend warrior going to test n tune just go down the strip. I can see how that can get old to people quick. What gets drag racing really exciting is when you are racing in an actual event.

I think it also has to do with people not having tail of the dragon or roads like that on a daily basis to have fun driving - but just about everyone has a redlight they are stopped at - so the feeling of knowing how fast you can get to the next one is a more real experience for most

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

Being scared of electricity comes from not understanding how it works. You certainly wouldn't want people who have no clue mucking around it but the people who work on power lines aren't special. It's just not common knowledge to most people how to play around high voltage.

The thing is, I have some idea about how electricity works . . . enough to see where a motor swap could easily be more involved than proponents of such swaps make them out to be. Sure . . . if the mounting bolt pattern is identical, and the electrical hookups are in the exact same place and orientation, and the conductors themselves are rated to the current draw of the new motor. That's just off the top of my head as I type.

And i'm not suggesting you have to take your car in to get something swapped, i'm suggesting it's more like your tranny swap ... You didn't take your old transmission out of your car, rebuild/change it's guts and then put it back together. You bought a transmission that had already been built and are going to swap out your current one for it.

Just so you know, I have rebuilt a few transmissions/transaxles.

But for most people, an electric motor swap absolutely would be a job for some shop.

it'll be aesthetic mods only or playing with old stuff unless i'm happily proven wrong by some miracle of customer focused legislation.

In the absence of such consumer-focused legislation it'll be like I said. I wouldn't want to go back to carbs and HEIs, but I might given enough incentive.

Aesthetic mods . . . hard no on that. Even for wheels, function (meaning diameter, width, and offset) heads the list of priorities, leaving appearance as a tie-breaker.


Norm

[FarmerFran]

Some will be scared of it some will not. If there is money to be had in the aftermarket there will be parts.

I am in the not afraid camp.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by FarmerFran

I think it also has to do with people not having tail of the dragon or roads like that on a daily basis to have fun driving - but just about everyone has a redlight they are stopped at - so the feeling of knowing how fast you can get to the next one is a more real experience for most

that's also a very good point.