[motorhead]

Originally Posted by Laststandard

I can't wait to trade my 1LE in for the new Camaro crossover...

the new Blazer?

[Laststandard]

Originally Posted by motorhead

the new Blazer?

Ha. If they stuffed a V8 in there I'd be tempted to replace my daily driver with one.

[torqueaddict]

Originally Posted by JaxChris

-Crappy A/C (vs over 12" of vertical fogging in the middle of the windshield)
-Rattling / Ticking engine (vs NPP & AFM valve rattle)
-Random CELs (vs exploding LT1's)
-Grinding manual tranny (vs 8L90e has been a headache for many of us)
-Hood flutter (vs 6th gen Camaro has it, do 80mph on a bridge)
-Misaligned body panels (vs most lifts crush our sideskirts)
-Rust spots after a few years (vs you didn't own a thin paint 5th gen?)
-Hood corrosion (vs GM still has a problem with rail dust settling on cars)
-Oil leaks (vs wrong fluids put in at the factory)
-Driveline vibration (vs rear differential shudder)
-Malfunctioning power seats (vs Service Rear Vision System)
-Loose master cylinder hose leaking brake fluid (vs insane amounts of corrosive brake dust)
-Excessive oil consumption (vs change your own oil and see you're also missing a quart after 5k miles)
-Leaking valve cover gasket (vs loose piston rings seizing)

It takes a special person to keep their eyes shut so hard for so long and never attempt to experience all sides for themselves. I will give you that the 6th gen paint job is more uniform, but for the rest there is a tit for tat between complaints of the S550 & Alpha competitors.

If GM sorted out their engine and transmission issues and took the platform approach that Ford did with the S550, it would be the best combination to bring back those buyers that remember what a Camaro is supposed to be. A Camaro was never supposed to have a median price above the median income of its' core buyer and certainly not go all the way above the national median salary.

And you can have your pinned together car, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't have the ability to make it your own. The two concepts are not mutually exclusive. Why do you assume that you can't have both in this scenario? You think an easier to alter platform is more prone to quality issues? Tell that to Honda or VW or Subaru. They use a toolkit approach to every model and everything is interchangeable. And still they rank in the top bracket for quality (just not truth in emissions).

-Crappy A/C (vs over 12" of vertical fogging in the middle of the windshield) - Yeah but the A/C still works. Anyway not a big deal.
-Rattling / Ticking engine (vs NPP & AFM valve rattle) - I'll take the NPP rattle anyday vs an unreliable engine.
-Random CELs (vs exploding LT1's) - Exploding LT1s are rare by comparison
-Grinding manual tranny (vs 8L90e has been a headache for many of us) - I'll give you that. GM screwed up on the A8.
-Hood flutter (vs 6th gen Camaro has it, do 80mph on a bridge) - BS, I have taken it up to 120-130 - never happened. When last have you seen a thread here about hood flutter?
-Misaligned body panels (vs most lifts crush our sideskirts) - Apples and oranges. One is poor quality control, another is negligence.
-Rust spots after a few years (vs you didn't own a thin paint 5th gen?) - No I own a 6th gen.
-Hood corrosion (vs GM still has a problem with rail dust settling on cars) - Stretching a bit, aren't we? Plus rail dust is easily removable
-Oil leaks (vs wrong fluids put in at the factory) - Apples and oranges. One is poor build quality, another is negligence.
-Driveline vibration (vs rear differential shudder) - Rear diff groan is an issue on some 6th gens, true - but it's pretty rare nowadays and easily fixable. Driveline vibration? Good luck. And Ford doesn't care.
-Malfunctioning power seats (vs Service Rear Vision System) - Rare.
-Loose master cylinder hose leaking brake fluid (vs insane amounts of corrosive brake dust) - Apples and oranges. Brake dust is a result of pad type, not system design.
-Excessive oil consumption (vs change your own oil and see you're also missing a quart after 5k miles) - Rare.
-Leaking valve cover gasket (vs loose piston rings seizing) - Rare

Knowing I was going to keep the car for more than 5 years, I looked long and hard at the Mustang vs Camaro issues, and they just didn't compare. Ford's glaring quality control problems stood out. No, the Camaro is not perfect, but they don't compare tit for tat, not by a longshot.

As for platform differences, what you get with the base Mustang doesn't compare well to what you get with the Camaro. The Camaro is aimed at those that want a more well rounded car AND the enthusiast that demond more from their cars than just average features and average handling for the money. Only in straightline performance does the Mustang compare favorably. So what is GM supposed to do? Give you these extra features at the same price? No, the Camaro cost more because you get more.

If you want a car to build and the S550 platform is more favorable, then get a Mustang, it's as simple as that. If I wanted the Mustang experience, I'd have bought one.

And Please, Honda and quality don't necessarily go hand in hand. Their higher performance cars that can compare somewhat to the Camaro SS are riddled with quality issues. You won't hear that from the mags, you'll see it in the forums. And believe me, I have.

Yes GM will have to do something regarding sales, and I see a complete redesign as the only answer. But I'd rather them start from the ground up with a new platform than to water down what the Camaro sits on. Keep the Camaro for the mid to higher end enthusiast market and give the general public a watered down platform with a sleek exterior, nicer interior, room for four, and a bubble canopy.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by Gen6_1Le

I see them going for a different crowd then the older muscle car gear heads and can bring in more new sales with a smaller Camaro ,younger buyer ,the guys that are not afraid of smaller turbo motors. I doubt Chevy wants the Camaro to fall into the trap of a certain age group,like Corvette has been . For years Chevy has been trying to bring younger buyers to the Corvette without success. There is just so much tech out there nowadays to tap into with Hybrid motors and to not take advantage of it means it will be left in the dust of the cars that do . Its happening now when you think about it . I'm sticking with a smaller ,lighter faster Camaro in the future ,anything else just don't make sense.

I don't see the car getting smaller. How much smaller can it get? Are we talking like BRZ size? Or splitting the difference?

[fastball]

Originally Posted by motorhead

That's what made those times so fun.

I don't know if I'd have had fun wrapping my Camaro around a tree which was a lot easier and a lot more common place then than it is now.

How many classic muscle cars went to the junk yard before their time? I guess that's partly why the remaining survivors are worth so much now..... many of them were destroyed by the driver simply losing it. Thankfully that doesn't happen as much now.

It's much more fun for me to enjoy the feel, handling, and complete performance of my car rather than worry if it's going to wipe out, roll, the rear end is going to break loose, or my brakes are going to turn to mush. Love the feel of the connection this car has to the road. I've driven the oldies, and they do have a certain charm and I do love them for what they are. But I would never use one as an every day driver like I do my modern Camaro. I don't mean from the collectible, classic car, can't find parts for it, don't want to get it dirty or scratched or rusted stand point, I mean they're simply nowhere near tolerable as an every day driver.

[MackSteelPrivateEye]

Originally Posted by fastball

The big cars were fine for their smoothness since you're not going to put them on a track or in a slalom. It was the muscle cars that had lots of power but no handling at the time. No one is going to try to put a Chrysler Imperial or Cadillac Fleetwood on a track. But even the best heavy duty suspension Camaros and Corvettes of the time would fall way behind compared to the modern day Hellcat on a track.

Even with front disc/rear drum or the large, heavy duty all wheel drum brakes would end up mush after about 5 minutes on the track compared to the 4 wheel Brembos on the Hellcat which start working BETTER the hotter they get.

I think the guy I was replying to was insinuating the Hellcat was more power than it's chassis could bear. I merely pointed out that old muscle cars had power but the technology for braking and handling hadn't been developed, at least on a production car scale, for a long time and wouldn't be available in mass produced cars for another 30 years.

Of course so much of it comes down to computers and electronics now not avail. 50 years ago.

[MackSteelPrivateEye]

Originally Posted by torqueaddict

Yeah I can't wait to trade in my crappy Camaro and pick up a Mustang to wallow in the assortment of very likely ownership perks:

-Crappy A/C
-Rattling / Ticking engine
-Random CELs
-Grinding manual tranny
-Hood flutter
-Misaligned body panels
-Rust spots after a few years
-Hood corrosion
-Oil leaks
-Driveline vibration
-Malfunctioning power seats
-Loose master cylinder hose leaking brake fluid
-Excessive oil consumption
-Leaking valve cover gasket


Not all Camaro drivers want a 'kit' car. I appreciate the fact that I can pick up a well rounded vehicle that I don't have to mess with. And there are options for people who want to play. They're just not cheap, but they are there.

I'm not sure if you read about Ford lately, but their future is pretty iffy.

You got a lemon...use the lemon law.

[motorhead]

Originally Posted by Laststandard

Ha. If they stuffed a V8 in there I'd be tempted to replace my daily driver with one.

i would be all over that too

[motorhead]

Originally Posted by fastball

I don't know if I'd have had fun wrapping my Camaro around a tree which was a lot easier and a lot more common place then than it is now.

How many classic muscle cars went to the junk yard before their time? I guess that's partly why the remaining survivors are worth so much now..... many of them were destroyed by the driver simply losing it. Thankfully that doesn't happen as much now.

It's much more fun for me to enjoy the feel, handling, and complete performance of my car rather than worry if it's going to wipe out, roll, the rear end is going to break loose, or my brakes are going to turn to mush. Love the feel of the connection this car has to the road. I've driven the oldies, and they do have a certain charm and I do love them for what they are. But I would never use one as an every day driver like I do my modern Camaro. I don't mean from the collectible, classic car, can't find parts for it, don't want to get it dirty or scratched or rusted stand point, I mean they're simply nowhere near tolerable as an every day driver.

haha, all true.

[HighIron]

Originally Posted by fastball

I don't know if I'd have had fun wrapping my Camaro around a tree which was a lot easier and a lot more common place then than it is now.

How many classic muscle cars went to the junk yard before their time? I guess that's partly why the remaining survivors are worth so much now..... many of them were destroyed by the driver simply losing it. Thankfully that doesn't happen as much now.

It's much more fun for me to enjoy the feel, handling, and complete performance of my car rather than worry if it's going to wipe out, roll, the rear end is going to break loose, or my brakes are going to turn to mush. Love the feel of the connection this car has to the road. I've driven the oldies, and they do have a certain charm and I do love them for what they are. But I would never use one as an every day driver like I do my modern Camaro. I don't mean from the collectible, classic car, can't find parts for it, don't want to get it dirty or scratched or rusted stand point, I mean they're simply nowhere near tolerable as an every day driver.

I agree. I'd add that I bought and enjoy my Camaro for what it is, not what it represents or pays homage to. My age would probably put me more or less smack dab in the middle of a target demographic of fans of old muscle wanting a modern iteration of same, but that's now how it plays out. While I love classic muscle ( even own one ) I was never really a big Chevy or Camaro fan. The fact that the later model Camaros have a retro theme had zero influence on my desire to have one: I simply loved the look, performance, and features. In fact I only kinda' sorta' liked the 5th gen, whereas the 6th gen pushed me over the "I gotta have one" threshhold.

[torqueaddict]

Originally Posted by HighIron

I agree. I'd add that I bought and enjoy my Camaro for what it is, not what it represents or pays homage to. My age would probably put me more or less smack dab in the middle of a target demographic of fans of old muscle wanting a modern iteration of same, but that's now how it plays out. While I love classic muscle ( even own one ) I was never really a big Chevy or Camaro fan. The fact that the later model Camaros have a retro theme had zero influence on my desire to have one: I simply loved the look, performance, and features. In fact I only kinda' sorta' liked the 5th gen, whereas the 6th gen pushed me over the "I gotta have one" threshhold.

Same here. Seeing and reading about the 6th gen pulled me to Chevy. And I have no regrets. The car has easily met and in many cases, surpassed by expectations.

[Gen6_1Le]

Originally Posted by shaffe

I don't see the car getting smaller. How much smaller can it get? Are we talking like BRZ size? Or splitting the difference?

More like Aston-Martin DB11 size with more headroom .

[Gen6_1Le]

Originally Posted by motorhead

Yep, and from your post I'm guessing you prefer your car to manage those physics more than yourself. That's okay. Like old Clint Eastwood said "A man's got to know his limitations."

Yes i would take advantage of every bit of aero i could on a car , especially that big dumb wing and canards you talk about . Its not as bad as all the people buying automatic transmissions because they need the extra hair of a second to be a drag racer . At least i manage to shift my own gears .

[SecondZ28]

Originally Posted by Gen6_1Le

I see them going for a different crowd then the older muscle car gear heads and can bring in more new sales with a smaller Camaro ,younger buyer ,the guys that are not afraid of smaller turbo motors

They already tried that with Gen 6.

Smaller car which also introduced the turbo 4 into the lineup