[khcoaching]

I've driven a few Caymans and GT4s on track and think I have a decent comparison of them against the SS 1LE, on track.

They're pretty damn good. Agile, revvy, great feel, outstanding brakes, really fun cars. The PDK is great and I just drove a manual one at Summit last week that was an absolute blast. That said, they're not perfect. A LOT of front end push, abrupt throttle and a handful when pushing. My thought is stock for stock on equal tires, I'd go quicker in an SS with less drama. Price wise, a new GT4 is close to 3x SS 1LEs I believe. (I've also seen some pretty lightly modified GT4s perform really well, see second video)

Now...the GT4 Clubsport, that's a different story. A stock 718/GT4 is abut equal to mine on a long straight. The Club Sport pulls like a ZLE and of course has the brakes and chassis to back it up. (Also at 200k plus)

Here's a lap of a well driven GT4 Club Sport at the Ridge and he does a mid 42. For comparison, my best is a 44.9 on 3Rs and I think with slicks I'll in the 43s.

https://youtu.be/UVsdEKmSvsI

Here's a lap with a standard GT4 with grip and brake pads, also driven well.

https://youtu.be/UlBAI8Dtl6I

[NG329]

Originally Posted by khcoaching

I've driven a few Caymans and GT4s on track and think I have a decent comparison of them against the SS 1LE, on track.

They're pretty damn good. Agile, revvy, great feel, outstanding brakes, really fun cars. The PDK is great and I just drove a manual one at Summit last week that was an absolute blast. That said, they're not perfect. A LOT of front end push, abrupt throttle and a handful when pushing. My thought is stock for stock on equal tires, I'd go quicker in an SS with less drama. Price wise, a new GT4 is close to 3x SS 1LEs I believe. (I've also seen some pretty lightly modified GT4s perform really well, see second video)

Now...the GT4 Clubsport, that's a different story. A stock 718/GT4 is abut equal to mine on a long straight. The Club Sport pulls like a ZLE and of course has the brakes and chassis to back it up. (Also at 200k plus)

Here's a lap of a well driven GT4 Club Sport at the Ridge and he does a mid 42. For comparison, my best is a 44.9 on 3Rs and I think with slicks I'll in the 43s.

https://youtu.be/UVsdEKmSvsI

Here's a lap with a standard GT4 with grip and brake pads, also driven well.

https://youtu.be/UlBAI8Dtl6I

Thanks for sharing.

Cayman's aren't terrible, but as you pointed out you are at an entirely different price point. The club sport ought to that fast when you're shelling out that kind of cash.

My thought on $200k for a cayman is that you really gotta love the Cayman. Especially when you are in 911 Turbo, GT3, McLaren, Lambo, and 458 territory. There are so many other soul stirring cars for that kind of money.

[NG329]

Originally Posted by Zl1+911

I believe the gt4 is sock with cup 2s. If you put cup 2 on 1le, it will be faster

Damn good catch. I completely overlooked that.

[LESS1]

Originally Posted by Zl1+911

While i did not intend the thread to become a zle vs 1le thread, its a bit inevitable that we have to discuss that.

The car set up that i would be after is like what a fellow member has - https://www.camaro6.com/forums/showt...594295&page=10

(Essentially a ZlE without the supercharger)

I bet his car is faster than a zle except tracks where the straights create an advantage. I dont know the skill levels of drivers involved- but he has the fastest time at ridge in WA significantly better than a zle. If you take his car, add a flex fuel kit and lighten it a bit - thats what i am after…..btw i also now believe that consumables on a 1le are better than zle. Tires wear even and front brakes take less abuse…

I currently own a 2019 SS 1LE and have been contemplating this as well. That said, I have been following this build as well and put together a quick sheet to track his mods and resulting lap time. And I agree with you regarding the performance potential of a SS 1lE vs ZLE on a shorter road course where HP/TQ advantages of ZLE cannot be exploited. SS 1LE is lighter and has a better center of gravity without a heavy supercharger on top of the engine (bad) and better weight distribution. Given the mods this gent has completed so far and the drop in lap times to date I'd say this is not a bad path to go down. The only thing I would change here is the ZLE front brakes, I'd go with AP racing 390mm options which are ~ 7 to 9 lbs lighter than OEM ZLE front brakes and will have longer pad and rotor life over the option used in this build.




Modified - Modifications - Track - Best time - Difference
Stock N/A Ridge Motorsports Park no Chicane 1:51.44 N/A
Stock N/A Ridge Motorsports Park no Chicane 1:50.21 -1.23
Mod GMPP CAI with calibration – ZLE rear subframe bushings, DOT4 fluid, different alignment (-2.5F -1.5 R .002 Toe) Ridge Motorsports Park no Chicane 1:48.91 -1.31
Mod 19x11 Apex ET35 wheels with Goodyear F1 3s 305/30/19 tires all around and Ferodo DS1.11 front pads Ridge Motorsports Park no Chicane 1:47.52 -1.39
No same as #4, cooler temps from #4 Ridge Motorsports Park no Chicane 1:47.03 -0.49
No N/A Pacific Ridge N/A N/A
Mod Updated alignment with BMR rear toe arms - Alignment (-3.0/-2.25), LT2 ported intake (still stock tune and TB), Ferodo DS3.12 pads front and rear, Goodyear F1 3R 305/30/19 square Ridge Motorsports Park no Chicane 1:45.68 -1.35
Mod Full DSSV suspension, Full BMR rear control arms, ZLE front calipers (Ferodo 3.12 pads), SS front lines, Girodisc front rotors, Updated Alignment (-3.2/-2.6) Ridge Motorsports Park no Chicane 1:45.61 -0.07
Mod Same as #8 plus BMR adjustable front sway bar links Ridge Motorsports Park no Chicane 1:45.93 0.32
Mod Hotchkis front and BMR rear swaybars Ridge Motorsports Park no Chicane 1:45.13 -0.48
Mod Same as #10 plus 2 turns front sway bar preload adjustment Ridge Motorsports Park with Chicane 1:52.01 N/A

[khcoaching]

^^I used the ZLE front brakes mainly due to cost and keeping the stock look. APs would be amazing and the fact when driving at pace, the front pads last 3-4 days (max) there is merit to getting something that lasts longer. Weight wise, they are heavier, but I offset it with the Giro rotors which are the same as the stock SS 1LE.

The next steps are going to be interesting....I'm at the point where there are 3 paths to go:

1) More Grip
2) Aero
3) More HP

1) Grip - The next step will be a set go Hoosiers to see what they can do. I was thinking scrub slicks, but I find many times you don't know what you are getting and sizing is somewhat problematic. I don't many days with the car, so when I do go, I want to be sure I am not guessing about what tires I have.

2) Aero - I can't find real definitive info on how much this will improve, but based on some issues I am having, I think there is something here. The high speed stuff I drive, I can already run flat, so I am thinking more about the lower speed longer radius corners is where I need help. But, more grip I think will help this. (Until I just go faster and the same thing happens)

3) Power - Pandora's box here. But I would love to have another 100-125 rear wheel HP. I think this would be a massive equalizer, while still keeping the car friendly on exits.

There for sure is something also with weight, but not that much. Exhaust, seats, rear rotors is about all I would want to do. (edit - except there for sure is something with the Katech flywheel and VVT delete)

[DaveC113]

Originally Posted by khcoaching

^^I used the ZLE front brakes mainly due to cost and keeping the stock look. APs would be amazing and the fact when driving at pace, the front pads last 3-4 days (max) there is merit to getting something that lasts longer. Weight wise, they are heavier, but I offset it with the Giro rotors which are the same as the stock SS 1LE.

The next steps are going to be interesting....I'm at the point where there are 3 paths to go:

1) More Grip
2) Aero
3) More HP

1) Grip - The next step will be a set go Hoosiers to see what they can do. I was thinking scrub slicks, but I find many times you don't know what you are getting and sizing is somewhat problematic. I don't many days with the car, so when I do go, I want to be sure I am not guessing about what tires I have.

2) Aero - I can't find real definitive info on how much this will improve, but based on some issues I am having, I think there is something here. The high speed stuff I drive, I can already run flat, so I am thinking more about the lower speed longer radius corners is where I need help. But, more grip I think will help this. (Until I just go faster and the same thing happens)

3) Power - Pandora's box here. But I would love to have another 100-125 rear wheel HP. I think this would be a massive equalizer, while still keeping the car friendly on exits.

There for sure is something also with weight, but not that much. Exhaust, seats, rear rotors is about all I would want to do. (edit - except there for sure is something with the Katech flywheel and VVT delete)

While I mostly autox I have had better luck with ZLE sized staggered setup v/ 305 square. Keeping ABS happy is also a major concern of mine. Square makes ice mode more likely.

Been looking at Texas Speed cam kits. I'd be in if labor wasn't 30 hours + a tune. My main motivation was getting rid of the OEM AFM lifters, but that requires removing the heads, then you might as well do cam, lifters, springs and flex fuel tune. Also gets you a higher redline. With headers you're at ZLE or better power levels though.

On aero I can only do ZLE canards and wing to stay legal for my class. Wing is a PITA and $$$, as you also need a SS non-1LE or ZL1 trunk lid. People want too much for these parts. If you want more wing it'll damage the car if it's just mounted to the trunk lid, so more $ and more PITA.

Also for grip I just got a DSC controller. Eventually my plan is to order stiffer custom springs and write a DSC program for them using Hotchkis ft bar and ZLE rear bar.

IDK... adding hp and aero is a massive investment that's getting real close to ZLE money. Maybe worth it though, I'd rather have a higher revving lighter NA car. But I also have a lot of other things I could spend my money on, lol.

[DaveC113]

Originally Posted by MechanicalEng

C8 is a bit faster in straights due to more HP, lower weight, better Cd and DCT trans.
718 GT4 is a bit faster overall but a much better sports car overall than any Camaro
981 GT4 is about the same as a Camaro SS1LE at the track but again a much better sports car overall. IMO

Thanks for the input. This is what everyone says about Cayman vs most cars, the superlatives heaped on the GT3s and GT4s is hard to ignore. I've rode in both but haven't driven either. I may have to ask my friend with a GT4 for a drive!

[LESS1]

Originally Posted by khcoaching

^^I used the ZLE front brakes mainly due to cost and keeping the stock look. APs would be amazing and the fact when driving at pace, the front pads last 3-4 days (max) there is merit to getting something that lasts longer. Weight wise, they are heavier, but I offset it with the Giro rotors which are the same as the stock SS 1LE.

The next steps are going to be interesting....I'm at the point where there are 3 paths to go:

1) More Grip
2) Aero
3) More HP

1) Grip - The next step will be a set go Hoosiers to see what they can do. I was thinking scrub slicks, but I find many times you don't know what you are getting and sizing is somewhat problematic. I don't many days with the car, so when I do go, I want to be sure I am not guessing about what tires I have.

2) Aero - I can't find real definitive info on how much this will improve, but based on some issues I am having, I think there is something here. The high speed stuff I drive, I can already run flat, so I am thinking more about the lower speed longer radius corners is where I need help. But, more grip I think will help this. (Until I just go faster and the same thing happens)

3) Power - Pandora's box here. But I would love to have another 100-125 rear wheel HP. I think this would be a massive equalizer, while still keeping the car friendly on exits.

There for sure is something also with weight, but not that much. Exhaust, seats, rear rotors is about all I would want to do.

I get the cost factor and the stock brakes are really good on all 1LE cars. My problem is I get about 2 days (~10 to 14 x 25 min sessions, depending on the track) on a set of OEM pads before they need to be changed. Rotors will need to be changed min once a year so this gets pricey. At this point, I am still putting together a build plan and after doing research the AP racing 390mm Heavy Duty option looks like the best direction for my use case. As for your current dilemma, I'd ask... have you considered a lightweight flywheel from kaTech? According to the Engineer I spoke to at Katech this will drop ~24.5 lbs of rotating weight.

Roughly for each pound removed which is rotating at Engine speed, you realize + ~2.14 HP equivalent gain.

Back in 2019 I did this same thing (Alu swiss cheese FLWH) along with a six-puck clutch on my Turbo Boxer Flat Four daily driver/occasional track day car and dropped ~19lbs in the process. The little sucker revs out like a liter-class sportbike now.

To my surprise, it isn't horrible in stop and go traffic as some folks report. If you don't daily drive your SS 1LE this won't be applicable to you, but might be to anyone else going the dual-purpose route. However, this is of course subjective.

A side benefit is you will spend less time in each gear so you will definitely see a drop in your lap times at every track you go to. However, if you rely on engine braking you will certainly lose some or possibly most of this effect since the rotating mass is being reduced. And you will need to adjust your driving style a little to compensate.

Great build so far and very informative to watch your progress/restults, thank you!

[NG329]

Originally Posted by LESS1

SS 1LE is lighter and has a better center of gravity without a heavy supercharger on top of the engine (bad) and better weight distribution.

Request for Fact Check on the 'has a better center of gravity' statement. Please site your source because I'm calling BS on that.

It's the same chassis platform between the two cars and the difference in weight really only comes down to the supercharger. That 150lbs is negligible when there is a 160 wheel horsepower advantage for the ZLE stock for stock.

Contrary to the statement above, the ZL1-1LE actually sits lower and would likely have the better center of gravity as depicted between my car and Greg's car.

In addition, the ZLE puts more rubber to the road and as a result has more lateral grip. Weight distribution in the ZL1-1LE is damn near perfect for a car of its size. Can you mod a SS-1LE to be able to outmaneuver a stock ZLE? Sure you can. but no one is leaving their ZLE stock.



I know this is the internet and I shouldn't get upset but honestly some of the misinformation here is starting to get under my skin.

[NG329]

Originally Posted by LESS1

Roughly for each pound removed which is rotating at Engine speed, you realize + ~2.14 HP equivalent gain.

Jeez dude. Your math is waaaaay wrong.

For chassis weight it's way more than that and probably somewhere in the ballpark of 8-10lbs per horsepower.

Using your math if I shed 100 pounds my car would pick up the equivalent of 214hp which is not true.


For rotating mass its a 1:4 ratio. 1lb of rotating mass removed is equivalent to 4lbs of chassis weight removed. 10lbs off of wheels/tires total would be equivalent to 40lbs of chassis weight removed. Which would free up approximately 2-4 horsepower (albeit the car would handle a lot better because of less gyroscopic forces).

[khcoaching]

Originally Posted by DaveC113

Also for grip I just got a DSC controller. Eventually my plan is to order stiffer custom springs and write a DSC program for them using Hotchkis ft bar and ZLE rear bar.

I thought about the DSC, but from what I researched, it lacked any real base settings and the people I checked with had a difficult time figuring out the software...I basically don't have time for that.

[NG329]

Originally Posted by khcoaching

^^I used the ZLE front brakes mainly due to cost and keeping the stock look. APs would be amazing and the fact when driving at pace, the front pads last 3-4 days (max) there is merit to getting something that lasts longer. Weight wise, they are heavier, but I offset it with the Giro rotors which are the same as the stock SS 1LE.

The next steps are going to be interesting....I'm at the point where there are 3 paths to go:

1) More Grip
2) Aero
3) More HP

1) Grip - The next step will be a set go Hoosiers to see what they can do. I was thinking scrub slicks, but I find many times you don't know what you are getting and sizing is somewhat problematic. I don't many days with the car, so when I do go, I want to be sure I am not guessing about what tires I have.

2) Aero - I can't find real definitive info on how much this will improve, but based on some issues I am having, I think there is something here. The high speed stuff I drive, I can already run flat, so I am thinking more about the lower speed longer radius corners is where I need help. But, more grip I think will help this. (Until I just go faster and the same thing happens)

3) Power - Pandora's box here. But I would love to have another 100-125 rear wheel HP. I think this would be a massive equalizer, while still keeping the car friendly on exits.

There for sure is something also with weight, but not that much. Exhaust, seats, rear rotors is about all I would want to do. (edit - except there for sure is something with the Katech flywheel and VVT delete)

As irony would have it, for numbers 1-3 you essentially just described a ZLE. With more power you will eat thru those pads better. As you know, slower cars are easier on consumables which is why the SS-1LE brakes last longer and tires last longer. So you are right that it is Pandora's box. If you make you're SS-1LE faster you will run into the same compromises that the ZLE has regarding consumables.

[khcoaching]

Originally Posted by LESS1

I get the cost factor and the stock brakes are really good on all 1LE cars. My problem is I get about 2 days (~10 to 14 x 25 min sessions, depending on the track) on a set of OEM pads before they need to be changed. Rotors will need to be changed min once a year so this gets pricey. At this point, I am still putting together a build plan and after doing research the AP racing 390mm Heavy Duty option looks like the best direction for my use case. As for your current dilemma, I'd ask... have you considered a lightweight flywheel from kaTech? According to the Engineer I spoke to at Katech this will drop ~24.5 lbs of rotating weight.

Stock pads won't come close to cutting it for the pace I want and the Giro rotors will go a year for me.

Yes! I talked with Zach and for sure the flywheel and potentially the VVT delete is something to look at. A lot of mass to drop.

[NG329]

Originally Posted by LESS1

have you considered a lightweight flywheel from kaTech? According to the Engineer I spoke to at Katech this will drop ~24.5 lbs of rotating weight.

I would not recommend a lightweight flywheel. You lose a lot of inertia and it will be extremely difficult to carry momentum into corners.

What you make up in acceleration you lose on the corner entry where a ton of time is made in a lap. In addition, lighter flywheels take some of the 'tractability' away from the car. You are more likely to spin under power.

I know this from prior builds.

For drag racing, go ahead. Knock yourself out.