[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by DaveC113

True, but isn't that from sedans just not selling anymore? Ford also killed all its cars but Mustang and they claim its a result of poor sales numbers.

For Camaro, I hope once Corvette becomes it's own brand they will have room for a less expensive front engine, rear drive car similar to the Camaro once Camaro gets converted to EV, but it seems unlikely... OTOH, they do still have the Caddies in production, so a parts-bin ICE-powered Corvette GT car seems like a possibility.

On EV sedans, I have to think that's for a couple reasons... competing with Tesla Model S and Model 3, as well as maximizing range. IMO Lucid made a mistake and their first vehicle should have been a CUV, SUV or truck. Rivian's market entrance seems to be going far better than Lucid and I think that's because people just want trucks and SUVs.

It's kinda chicken and egg. People do prefer the ride height advantage and the cargo flexibility. But there's also the factor that people can't buy what the automakers don't build. And the reason the automakers don't build them is that they are tough on the CAFE compliance. Why would Ford say anything but poor sales for reason to drop Focus and Fusion? They certainly aren't going to publicly state that a major factor is that it's easier to meet CAFE compliance with an Edge than a Fusion? That would just get the regulators to just go "Ah hah! Got ya! Now the truth comes out!". When GM made the decision to ax Cruze, Cruze was still selling a couple hundred thousand / year. I haven't looked, but I would expect that the numbers are similar for Focus and Fusion. So, if Ford can make more on an Escape than on a Focus and Escape puts them in a better position for CAFE, what's the smart play? More Escapes, less Focus. Same for Fusion / Edge. And Equinox / Cruze. I'm actually shocked that Malibu still lives and breathes. CT4 and CT5 pretty much had to hang around or Cadillac would have been a two vehicle showroom (Escalade / XT5) until XT6 came along. Even then, three vehicles does not a strong showroom make, so those sedans give them five. Buick makes do with four and they're all CUVs after ditching Regal.

Ford understands the value and equity in the Mustang name, just like GM sees value and equity in the Corvette name. To that point Ford is in the process of making Mustang a sub-brand, with a coupe, CUV (Mach E), and in a couple years a sedan. The sedan will be either a PHEV or an EV. GM is currently in the process of making Corvette a sub-brand, with a coupe, an SUV, and possibly a sedan. The SUV and sedan will be electric.

As far as Tesla and Lucid I think a lot of it has to do with getting the most range out of their first vehicles as they could. Add to that the fact they they both started development before the magnitude of the swing from sedans to CUVs was widely apparent. Also, EV sedans don't penalize CAFE numbers like ICE sedans do and neither Tesla nor Lucid have to ever care about CAFE.

The CAFE thing is why I think we'll see a resurgence of sedans when EVs become more commonplace. GM has already shown Buick badged EV sedan properties, even though Buick doesn't have a sedan product in their lineup now. I would not be surprised to see a Camaro EV. Actually, I'll be surprised if there is NOT a Camaro EV. I wouldn't take bets on how many doors it will have, though.

[GM-ACE]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

I’ll try to add a little perspective to what you’re saying here.

GM did hand market share to Ford after the drop of Gen 4. But it wasn’t for lack of trying. Gen 4 had to be ended because the F-body platform was not capable of meeting CAFE and safety requirements that were being rolled out at the time. GM tried super hard to put Camaro on a different architecture but there simply wasn’t anything usable available at the time.

For the first part of this time period I led the Powertrain Planning department and we were responsible for working with Engineering to match powertrains to vehicles. Later I was part of the Portfolio Planning group that made the business cases to place specific vehicle programs on appropriate architectures, so in both cases I was right in the middle working with people focused on trying to revive Camaro. Bringing it back on Zeta platform was pretty much a moon shot led by Bob Lutz, Ed Welburn, and Tom Stephens (VP of Powertrain). Ed had his 1st Gen parked in the GM Design studios and gave his team direction to use it as inspiration to design 5th Gen.

GM was working hard on development of a Gen 7 right up until the strategic shift to all EV for passenger cars. I had left GM by this point in time but was still in touch with people familiar with the program, some of whom are active in this forum. The decline in sedans, coupes and convertibles combined with the move to EV effectively cut the lifeline for Camaro and a whole bunch of other cars. Most of them, including Camaro, are likely to come back in EV form eventually.

(me and Ed Welburn at an Automotive Hall of Fame event)

Love your insight James.
On the topic of Chevy giving up on Camaro, that's the way I feel about the 2015 Corvette I'm driving now. Both my 2019 & 2021 Camaros were more fun to drive and had modern usable features and overall tech. I really can't see very well backing up at night because the resolution of the camera and lower quality (think old tech) radio screen are lacking, and no backup sensors or side object detection especially when they had the tech on other cars, to me was inexcusable for Chevy's flagship.
Almost like they planned on the C7 being just what they produced on all trims, with all the goodies going to the C8.
While the Vette has superior suspension and visibility, the 7 spd trans just doesn't work for me with the LT1 like the 6 spd in the Camaro did.
The only real complaints I had about my 6th gens were visibility, small windows, a dash with zero options for the modern life of cell phones, I mean, the back center console was really unusable, as was the "back seat" and a center console lid that is freakishly long.
The rear view camera was an awesome option to assist with the visibility problem. I originally thought the 2019 refresh was horrid, till I laid eyes on it and thought it was an improvement over the 2016-18s.
Having worked on every generation of Camaro as a technician except the 6th gen, I thought the 5th & 6th gens brought Camaro to it's zenith, they are really great cars.

[1ceman]

Totally disagree with OP. Plenty of reasons for that already posted. I washed my car and smiled after walking circles around it at the gas station - and people know exactly what I'm driving. GM was still marketing the 2022 Camaro until last month on social media.

[paradigm]

I think the current car is a good looking car, especially in ZL1 form. They really screwed the SS for the 2019 design, but made up for it in 2020. The early 16-18 cars had the best front end.

The early 5th gens (10-13) also looked very menacing, had had good proportions.

The 4th gen is a love it or hate it guy. Personally I loved my 99 SS, but I can see why the regular public would think of it as an odd looking car.

[DaveC113]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

It's kinda chicken and egg. People do prefer the ride height advantage and the cargo flexibility. But there's also the factor that people can't buy what the automakers don't build. And the reason the automakers don't build them is that they are tough on the CAFE compliance. Why would Ford say anything but poor sales for reason to drop Focus and Fusion? They certainly aren't going to publicly state that a major factor is that it's easier to meet CAFE compliance with an Edge than a Fusion? That would just get the regulators to just go "Ah hah! Got ya! Now the truth comes out!". When GM made the decision to ax Cruze, Cruze was still selling a couple hundred thousand / year. I haven't looked, but I would expect that the numbers are similar for Focus and Fusion. So, if Ford can make more on an Escape than on a Focus and Escape puts them in a better position for CAFE, what's the smart play? More Escapes, less Focus. Same for Fusion / Edge. And Equinox / Cruze. I'm actually shocked that Malibu still lives and breathes. CT4 and CT5 pretty much had to hang around or Cadillac would have been a two vehicle showroom (Escalade / XT5) until XT6 came along. Even then, three vehicles does not a strong showroom make, so those sedans give them five. Buick makes do with four and they're all CUVs after ditching Regal.

Ford understands the value and equity in the Mustang name, just like GM sees value and equity in the Corvette name. To that point Ford is in the process of making Mustang a sub-brand, with a coupe, CUV (Mach E), and in a couple years a sedan. The sedan will be either a PHEV or an EV. GM is currently in the process of making Corvette a sub-brand, with a coupe, an SUV, and possibly a sedan. The SUV and sedan will be electric.

As far as Tesla and Lucid I think a lot of it has to do with getting the most range out of their first vehicles as they could. Add to that the fact they they both started development before the magnitude of the swing from sedans to CUVs was widely apparent. Also, EV sedans don't penalize CAFE numbers like ICE sedans do and neither Tesla nor Lucid have to ever care about CAFE.

The CAFE thing is why I think we'll see a resurgence of sedans when EVs become more commonplace. GM has already shown Buick badged EV sedan properties, even though Buick doesn't have a sedan product in their lineup now. I would not be surprised to see a Camaro EV. Actually, I'll be surprised if there is NOT a Camaro EV. I wouldn't take bets on how many doors it will have, though.

Thanks!

I hope either the Camaro or an upcoming Corvette coupe is still offered as ICE or hybrid.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by DaveC113

Thanks!

I hope either the Camaro or an upcoming Corvette coupe is still offered as ICE or hybrid.

Well, there's this... https://www.motorauthority.com/news/...one-after-2024