[hotlap]

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

At least it did THAT well...

But seriously. If the PP2 is NOT a track package but a performance enthusiast package for street ONLY NEVER ON THE TRACK car, why can't you get it with the automatic trans? That literally makes no sense. Tons of guys would love to buy that configuration for street use. It would also be better at the 1/4 mile track to boot. It certainly would sell.

Why can't you get a convertible PP2 for street use? What, convertibles are unsuited for street only, never to be driven on a track type use? You can get the PP1 in a convertible. Why?

Like I said before, if is swims like a duck, quacks likes a duck, and in this case, poops like a duck....

Plus, if Ford just put the coolers in in the first place, we would all be saying this thing is a track monster like the 1LE. The coolers can't cost that much. Why would a company come that close to the finish line and then just quit? No matter what, that is a bit of lost potential at a very minimal cost.

Pretty dumb.

They don’t want to warranty it for track use. The coolers are cheap, standing behind a car for track use requires a different level of confidence and financial commitment. Same for the original $49.9k base GT350 without coolers. My opinion.

[1970judge]

I am really curious to know how the Mustang forum people are handling this news?

Anyone have a thread link?

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by 1970judge

I am really curious to know how the Mustang forum people are handling this news?

Anyone have a thread link?

There is no thread on this at M6G.

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by 50MileSmile

Wow - were you run over by a Mustang as a young child? This is a lot of anger over a car that doesn’t meet your standards, especially since the manufacturer has attached disclaimers all over it.



Having worked in and around the automotive industry for many years (including testing and racing), that’s exactly what I’m saying. It’s called bragging rights.

Nope. But i did own 2 GTs and tracked one of them extensively. Bragging rights are fine, but only if a car is capable of meeting them. I bought my 1le because i can brag that it beat a mighty z28 around Laguna at half the price and that i have passed evey GT4 ive ever met on a track thus far

Bragging in the media about aero tuning by a pro driver for 140mph corners while attaching anti track use disclaimers at the same time does indeed disappoint me as it makes such effort completely irrelevant. Thats kinda like marketing new and improved condoms but warning the public they cant use them for real sex.

Overall, the whole effort was very clever for marketing purposes, but pointless for consumers, including all the hoopla about skunk works project by Ford enthusiast engineers and such.
Unless Ford condones taking corners at such speeds on public roads, which i doubt they do.

It is also worth mentioning that of all pony cars it is the Mustang which has had the biggest decrease in sales over the last 3 or so years. 33% to 30% for Camaro (if i recall details correctly) vs modest growth for Challenger. Ford needs to let the dogs out vs creating artificial barriers for enthusiasts. Just imo.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

No, Ford has never said that directly, but in the M6G thread about the Mustang PP1 getting thrashed by the 1LE, many of the M6G members pointed out that PP1 was never intended to compete with 1LE, that was PP2’s job. That thread is almost 100 pages long and nobody on that thread has offered the opinion that Ford doesn’t consider the 1LE to be PP2’s target. Apparently Ford has done or said nothing to define what the purpose of PP2 is and enough Mustang faithful are or were under the impression that it is to stand up to 1LE.

This. If you just sit back and look at the all the upgrades the PP2 has it looks pretty damn obvious that it was meant to close the gap between the PP1 and 1LE. Look at Ford's history lately. Everytime GM one ups them, they come back swinging( they might not always succeed but they are trying)

ZL1 with 580 HP, GT500 with 662
Z/28 becomes the darling of automotive media, enter 350R
SS1LE spanks the PP1, enter PP2.

ZL1 and ZLE, GT500 delayed - because they know they need to hit it out of the park.

Ford is clearly trying to close the gap, they made a big effort here and as others said just kind of quit at the end. That is disappointing.

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

At least it did THAT well...

But seriously. If the PP2 is NOT a track package but a performance enthusiast package for street ONLY NEVER ON THE TRACK car, why can't you get it with the automatic trans? That literally makes no sense. Tons of guys would love to buy that configuration for street use. It would also be better at the 1/4 mile track to boot. It certainly would sell.

Why can't you get a convertible PP2 for street use? What, convertibles are unsuited for street only, never to be driven on a track type use? You can get the PP1 in a convertible. Why?

Like I said before, if is swims like a duck, quacks likes a duck, and in this case, poops like a duck....

Plus, if Ford just put the coolers in in the first place, we would all be saying this thing is a track monster like the 1LE. The coolers can't cost that much. Why would a company come that close to the finish line and then just quit? No matter what, that is a bit of lost potential at a very minimal cost.

Pretty dumb.

This ^ The car had all the ingredients to be a worthy competitor of the 1LE but the first magazine highlights we see of it, it overheats? That is just bad.

Originally Posted by TrackClub

Nope. But i did own 2 GTs and tracked one of them extensively. Bragging rights are fine, but only if a car is capable of meeting them. I bought my 1le because i can brag that it beat a mighty z28 around Laguna at half the price and that i have passed evey GT4 ive ever met on a track thus far

Bragging in the media about aero tuning by a pro driver for 140mph corners while attaching anti track use disclaimers at the same time does indeed disappoint me as it makes such effort completely irrelevant. Thats kinda like marketing new and improved condoms but warning the public they cant use them for real sex.

Overall, the whole effort was very clever for marketing purposes, but pointless for consumers, including all the hoopla about skunk works project by Ford enthusiast engineers and such.
Unless Ford condones taking corners at such speeds on public roads, which i doubt they do.

It is also worth mentioning that of all pony cars it is the Mustang which has had the biggest decrease in sales over the last 3 or so years. 33% to 30% for Camaro (if i recall details correctly) vs modest growth for Challenger. Ford needs to let the dogs out vs creating artificial barriers for enthusiasts. Just imo.

See I don't think it was clever at all. If they wanted it just for media purposes to make the Mustang look better against the 1LE, then they failed because the first publication with a review out, the car overheated. That is just bad. Now maybe this car just got unlucky and when MT puts their review up they were able to blast around all day just fine (I don't see that happening) But this is a disappointing effort from Ford.

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by shaffe

This. If you just sit back and look at the all the upgrades the PP2 has it looks pretty damn obvious that it was meant to close the gap between the PP1 and 1LE. Look at Ford's history lately. Everytime GM one ups them, they come back swinging( they might not always succeed but they are trying)

ZL1 with 580 HP, GT500 with 662
Z/28 becomes the darling of automotive media, enter 350R
SS1LE spanks the PP1, enter PP2.

ZL1 and ZLE, GT500 delayed - because they know they need to hit it out of the park.

Ford is clearly trying to close the gap, they made a big effort here and as others said just kind of quit at the end. That is disappointing.



This ^ The car had all the ingredients to be a worthy competitor of the 1LE but the first magazine highlights we see of it, it overheats? That is just bad.



See I don't think it was clever at all. If they wanted it just for media purposes to make the Mustang look better against the 1LE, then they failed because the first publication with a review out, the car overheated. That is just bad. Now maybe this car just got unlucky and when MT puts their review up they were able to blast around all day just fine (I don't see that happening) But this is a disappointing effort from Ford.

Oh i agree this is very disappointing et al.
But as far as clever "sucking and blowing at the same time" marketing effort i give them A+: skunks work project by enthusiasts working unpaid overtime (oh how this tugs at my heart strings lol), Billy the pro doing the tuning, 140mph corners, etc. Just one small print proviso: not intended for track duty...

[Mountain]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

Oh i agree this is very disappointing et al.
But as far as clever "sucking and blowing at the same time" marketing effort i give them A+: skunks work project by enthusiasts working unpaid overtime (oh how this tugs at my heart strings lol), Billy the pro doing the tuning, 140mph corners, etc. Just one small print proviso: not intended for track duty...

This is exactly how I feel... I grew up with Mustang. It was the foundation of a lot of my learning. The GT350 was music to my ears in that Ford finally, FINALLY, offered something properly done! Then, hearing about the PP2, Billy Johnson working on it, echos of GT350 development integrated, proper shoes... I got excited. But, then: no additional fluid coolers; not suggested for track use. Goes into a limp mode/sets off all kinds of warnings if you try too hard on track. What. The. Fu$K.

Come on, guys (Ford). You were so close. The GT4 is amazing. The GT350 is great (as long as you get a TP or 2017+). The Boss 302R/S are fantastic. You can do it, but just wont. GM can and does do it; you can too.

[S2K+1LE]

GM does it and sells far fewer vehicles than Ford.

Ford doesn't bother sweating the true enthusiast details, and they end up selling cars for $10-25K over MSRP (GT350).

I'm not sure any of us will present the proper business case to convince Ford that they are at all wrong in the way they approach these things.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by S2K+1LE

GM does it and sells far fewer vehicles than Ford.

Ford doesn't bother sweating the true enthusiast details, and they end up selling cars for $10-25K over MSRP (GT350).

I'm not sure any of us will present the proper business case to convince Ford that they are at all wrong in the way they approach these things.

Only thing I'll argue you on is the over MSRP, that is 100% on the dealers. That extra money goes in their pockets, not Ford's

[S2K+1LE]

That isn't at all the point I'm making. The point is that Ford is making what people want, and people are lining up to pay more than what Ford thinks it is worth.

GM is making a technically better product and we're getting 4-7K off MSRP.

And that says pretty much all it needs to say about the market we are in.

[shaffe]

ahhhhh got you.

[TRZ06]

Originally Posted by S2K+1LE

That isn't at all the point I'm making. The point is that Ford is making what people want, and people are lining up to pay more than what Ford thinks it is worth.

GM is making a technically better product and we're getting 4-7K off MSRP.

And that says pretty much all it needs to say about the market we are in.

That is more a function of GM's philophsy. GM always hoes their cars out after the hype is over. You routinely see their entire line up reduced by 20% off MSRP after the hype is dyed down.

Part of that could be of the bad reputation they had in the past, that tends to diminish the future value of their cars, regardless of how good they are or how much they have changed as a company.

Perceived quality is very different than current/actual quality. GM is had shitty quality for a long time in the past, and now they are paying for it.

The reverse case is BMW, They have their old reputation of "The Ultimate Driving Machine" and people remember that and they are currently putting out shit from their M division and yet people buy into it because of their past reputation.

Going from my F80 M3 to my 2SS 1LE, I am going from over paying for an inferior performance product, to under paying for a superior product.

A smart car buyer will know the difference.

[Boost Creep]

So the TL;DR version is, Ford made the PP2 to compete against the 2SS Camaro and left the GT350 to deal with the 1LE?

[Mountain]

Originally Posted by S2K+1LE

That isn't at all the point I'm making. The point is that Ford is making what people want, and people are lining up to pay more than what Ford thinks it is worth.

GM is making a technically better product and we're getting 4-7K off MSRP.

And that says pretty much all it needs to say about the market we are in.

I really don't want to make this into a Ford vs Chevy (Mustang vs Camaro) business case and sales thread, but I want to make one point that seems to constantly be over-looked in that subject: livability

The Mustang is a more livable vehicle. That is, it is an easier car, and more versatile car, to owning for the average consumer. I will put money on it has nothing to do with the performance stuff. Chevy, although I love the 6th Gen, lost out in not making visibility better, instead perusing form over function, and not putting more consideration into usage of the trunk, the back seat and main seat cargo. These are all areas the average consumer cares more about.

The Camaro is the better performance car. Unfortunately, it is not the better car to live with. I have another vehicle, so, for me, it is not a big deal and the performance of this car is something, to me, worth the compromise. Really, the Camaro, as of now, is like a mini Corvette. End of story. Maybe that's Chevy's business case? Who knows.

The lesser sales have nothing at all to do with performance.

Face the facts, the kids of today care less and less about this kind of stuff. They are more into the emotion of things and less into the... "involvement" of things.

I will say that, the enabling of what the Camaro brings, does seem to bring people who haven't before partaken in performance driving to then do so.

[Look around at Mustang drivers: not the guys at cars & coffee, crusies, track events or the drag strip. Check out the ones on your way to work. Driving to the grocery store. At parks and schools. Case in point, when I was in one of my first Mustangs, I used to stuff a mountain bike in the back, along with gear. You cannot do that with the Camaro]

Nevertheless, you have to realize this:
A car like this, the 6th Gen Camaro, and cars like the GT350, true & capable "value performance vehicles", are ones of rarity and not likely to be around very long...