[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Whitespeed

The sad fact is most people want the illusion of performance but will never drive the car the way it is truly capable of being driven. The handling and performance from 20 years ago was enough for most people., since even then you couldn't get the full potential out of the car on the street. It comes down to an arms race between manufacturers for bragging rights that everyone gets caught up in but the majority of the buying public never really exploits to it's full potential, other than us enthusiasts. So the PP2 Mustang doesn't come with extra coolers. Is it a mistake on Fords part? Probably not, because they gambled the majority of buyers will never care. I'm not sure why GM decided to go all in with the Camaro this time, but in any case, I'm thankful they did!

I think it is true that most people who buy a Mustang GT or Camaro SS will never take them on the track. GM probably overkilled by equipping every V8 Camaro to be track capable. Ford definitely underwhelms by not even making the hardware necessary to track a Mustang GT available in an order package.

Some buyers may not have bought the car with intent to track, but in finding that the car is capable, they may choose to give it a try. Then there is the second owner. The person who picks up the car used. If they know how to identify the track ready cars from the non-track ready cars because of the option content, that is helpful. Otherwise it’s a question of knowing how to mod it or buying modded vehicles that you trust.

If Ford intended for only Shelby models to be track ready, they should have said that up front instead of leading some of their faithful to believe the PP2 would be a 1LE answer.

[RUQWIKR]

As mentioned prior, the GT350 (non-R) did not have the Track Pack / extra coolers standard until 2017. On another note, I think GM should make the extra coolers & capacity of the 19 ZR1 standard on Z07 package Grand Sports and Z06's. Won't even get into the letdown regarding cooling on earlier C7 Vettes.

[Nabush]

Originally Posted by RUQWIKR

As mentioned prior, the GT350 (non-R) did not have the Track Pack / extra coolers standard until 2017. On another note, I think GM should make the extra coolers & capacity of the 19 ZR1 standard on Z07 package Grand Sports and Z06's. Won't even get into the letdown regarding cooling on earlier C7 Vettes.

GrandSport doesn't require any cooling enhancements, this is the most track ready car of all GM lineup...
No engine overheating, nor trans(Manual) or brakes...

Z06 as far as the engine is another story...but this can be adressed it seems.

[RUQWIKR]

Originally Posted by Nabush

GrandSport doesn't require any cooling enhancements, this is the most track ready car of all GM lineup...
No engine overheating, nor trans(Manual) or brakes...

Z06 as far as the engine is another story...but this can be adressed it seems.

I disagree - I would say the SS 1LE is. More cooling capacity, outboard additional radiators, and much more frontal area for them than any C7 (except the ZR1).

The 17 GS M7 has the extra horizontal cooler which was a big help, however, the A8 GS's & Z51's still have concerns in higher ambients. Depending on if shifts are done manually or left in auto, track configuation, etc. makes a difference, too.

A local friend has spent a lot of money with his A8 trying to get trans and engine oil temps down because he runs here in Texas often during the summer. This weekend, it will be 106F in the shade at an event at Eagles Canyon.

[50MileSmile]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

If Ford intended for only Shelby models to be track ready, they should have said that up front instead of leading some of their faithful to believe the PP2 would be a 1LE answer.

I do not recall that Ford made that claim. It may have been a mistake in the media if it was ever said.

[50MileSmile]

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

The article reported the car can't go around a track but a lap or two before limp mode. If the intent was to brag, they failed miserably. Again

The car did exactly what Ford said it would do - not go around the track.

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

Most folks don't need 47 coolers for the street.

Wait a minute - 47? I only counted 46 on my 1LE. Where’s the 47th one?

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

....

If Ford intended for only Shelby models to be track ready, they should have said that up front instead of leading some of their faithful to believe the PP2 would be a 1LE answer.

Originally Posted by 50MileSmile

I do not recall that Ford made that claim. It may have been a mistake in the media if it was ever said.

No, Ford has never said that directly, but in the M6G thread about the Mustang PP1 getting thrashed by the 1LE, many of the M6G members pointed out that PP1 was never intended to compete with 1LE, that was PP2’s job. That thread is almost 100 pages long and nobody on that thread has offered the opinion that Ford doesn’t consider the 1LE to be PP2’s target. Apparently Ford has done or said nothing to define what the purpose of PP2 is and enough Mustang faithful are or were under the impression that it is to stand up to 1LE.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by 50MileSmile

The car did exactly what Ford said it would do - not go around the track.



Wait a minute - 47? I only counted 46 on my 1LE. Where’s the 47th one?

You haven’t figured out how to roll your windows down yet?

[pbsinternet1le]

Originally Posted by 50MileSmile

The car did exactly what Ford said it would do - not go around the track.



Wait a minute - 47? I only counted 46 on my 1LE. Where’s the 47th one?

Mine has 48 if you count the 1 in the trunk....

[whiteboyblues2001]

Originally Posted by pbsinternet1le

Mine has 48 if you count the 1 in the trunk....

Yeah, but I didn't count that one because the opening is too small.

[whiteboyblues2001]

Originally Posted by 50MileSmile

The car did exactly what Ford said it would do - not go around the track.

At least it did THAT well...

But seriously. If the PP2 is NOT a track package but a performance enthusiast package for street ONLY NEVER ON THE TRACK car, why can't you get it with the automatic trans? That literally makes no sense. Tons of guys would love to buy that configuration for street use. It would also be better at the 1/4 mile track to boot. It certainly would sell.

Why can't you get a convertible PP2 for street use? What, convertibles are unsuited for street only, never to be driven on a track type use? You can get the PP1 in a convertible. Why?

Like I said before, if is swims like a duck, quacks likes a duck, and in this case, poops like a duck....

Plus, if Ford just put the coolers in in the first place, we would all be saying this thing is a track monster like the 1LE. The coolers can't cost that much. Why would a company come that close to the finish line and then just quit? No matter what, that is a bit of lost potential at a very minimal cost.

Pretty dumb.

[Cgocifer]

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

At least it did THAT well...

But seriously. If the PP2 is NOT a track package but a performance enthusiast package for street ONLY NEVER ON THE TRACK car, why can't you get it with the automatic trans? That literally makes no sense. Tons of guys would love to buy that configuration for street use. It would also be better at the 1/4 mile track to boot. It certainly would sell.

Why can't you get a convertible PP2 for street use? What, convertibles are unsuited for street only, never to be driven on a track type use? You can get the PP1 in a convertible. Why?

Like I said before, if is swims like a duck, quacks likes a duck, and in this case, poops like a duck....

Plus, if Ford just put the coolers in in the first place, we would all be saying this thing is a track monster like the 1LE. The coolers can't cost that much. Why would a company come that close to the finish line and then just quit? No matter what, that is a bit of lost potential at a very minimal cost.

Pretty dumb.

I read somewhere that the cost of packaging the coolers was cost prohibitive. Guess they dont have the room for them without spending a bunch of cash redesigning some stuff. I'll try to dig up that article. One of the reasons I gave up on the PP2 and pulled the trigger on the 1LE.

[whiteboyblues2001]

Originally Posted by Cgocifer

I read somewhere that the cost of packaging the coolers was cost prohibitive. Guess they dont have the room for them without spending a bunch of cash redesigning some stuff. I'll try to dig up that article. One of the reasons I gave up on the PP2 and pulled the trigger on the 1LE.

I doubt coolers would be cost prohibitive, they already have coolers for the GT350. And remember, it is just the diff that is the issue. There is no Auto option for the PP2 so transmission cooling is likely unnecessary. Hell, how many "towing packages" were minimal cost for a trans cooler and tow hitch. It ain't that complicated. Hell, all the Ford apologists say all the time, "if you want to go around the track, you can just add the coolers. It's super easy. Everyone does it. Duh."

And again, this narrative still doesn't address the original confusion. There are track specific tires and extensive track specific tuning for the suspension, Magneride, and aerodynamic body parts, with a race car driver giving feed back in a car in high speed turns of up to 140 MPH, that folks are arguing was designed to NOT go around a track only back roads, and by the way, isn't available in a convertible or auto trans car.

[Mountain]

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

I doubt coolers would be cost prohibitive, they already have coolers for the GT350. And remember, it is just the diff that is the issue. There is no Auto option for the PP2 so transmission cooling is likely unnecessary. Hell, how many "towing packages" were minimal cost for a trans cooler and tow hitch. It ain't that complicated. Hell, all the Ford apologists say all the time, "if you want to go around the track, you can just add the coolers. It's super easy. Everyone does it. Duh."

And again, this narrative still doesn't address the original confusion. There are track specific tires and extensive track specific tuning for the suspension, Magneride, and aerodynamic body parts, with a race car driver giving feed back in a car in high speed turns of up to 140 MPH, that folks are arguing was designed to NOT go around a track only back roads, and by the way, isn't available in a convertible or auto trans car.

But there is cost and complexity in “packaging”. Meaning, where the cooler(s) are placed and getting them installed there.

Regardless, I say no excuse. The package is a goof now.

Also, it’s not just the diff. The MT82 needs a cooler. That transmission, in it’s case design and splash lube design, is simply not designed for track use whatsoever. It gets by, yes, with good fluid. Go have a Mustang guy log trans fluid temps on just a summer commute - they get hot, like 200F+ just cruising around. I did it in my S197 and saw 210-220 on a summer commute regularly. Read back to the original Boss 302S development by Tiger Racing (Paul Brown). The Tremec’s are much more robust, even the TR3160. In addition, consider what running 6.5-7.5k RPM for extended periods does with oil temps...