[Can'tHave2MuchHP]

Originally Posted by harrist5683

Can't believe no one has mentioned mods. $6,000 for a 900WHP hellcat. $6,000 minimum - $10,000 for a 700WHP ZL1. The LT4 doesn't make additional power particularly well. Also you lose a lot more at the crank in an A10 ZL1, as compared to an A8 Hellcat.

Stock-for-stock (and same driver skill), a ZL1 with DR's stands no chance vs a Hellcat with DR's. Just is what it is.

Of course, if you're looking at tracks and road courses, you're fairly competitive. However I would assume those cross shopping ZL1 <-> Hellcat <-> GT500 are more concerned with roll racing / straight line over anything to do with a track.

I don't think there's more drivetrain loss, it's more so because the "707" HP Hellcat engine is more like 740 HP. And I believe a Dodge engineer actually said that officially. They're underrated. They consistently dyno 610-650 RWHP, and I've seen some as high as 685 RWHP. They're inconsistent but they're CONSISTENTLY higher than what a 707 HP Automatic car should make.

As for cost per HP, yes the Hellcat engine makes a lot of power quite easily. But in reality, it just maintains that 100-120 or so RWHP delta mod for mod...Figure a Hellcat that dynos 650 RWHP stock and a ZL1 that puts down 550 RWHP. Spend $5000-$7500 on each. ZL1 makes around 650-700 RWHP and a Hellcat will make 750-800 RWHP. 900 RWHP is only happening with Injectors, E85, and other work. A typical 93 bolt on Hellcat is 800 RWHP +/- a few.

JMO. The LT4 is just handicapped by a baby blower. Just like the last ZL1 was. The only "real" blower ever put on a GM vehicle was the 2.3 on the LS9, with all the titanium parts - what an engine.

[harrist5683]

Originally Posted by Mister Will

But it is an option. When people say, "why doesn't GM answer to the challenge from Dodge". Well, the ZR1 is your answer.

Regarding vehicle "type" and demographics, claiming that the Corvette is not in the same category as the Dodge Challenger and Charger. The answer is clearly that the Camaro ZL1 is in a different category and demographic from the Challenger and Charger. It would be like comparing a NASCAR vehicle to a NHRA vehicle.

If an answer is double the price, it's not really an answer. In my mind (and in 90% of consumer's minds), the Mustang, Camaro, and Challenger compete for sales. The ZR-1 and the Demon are in their own completely separate categories, and really shouldn't even be compared together themselves.

Essentially, the OP is wanting a GM answer (new Camaro) that is priced comparatively (or lower) than a Red Eye or GT500 with similar or better performance.

[harrist5683]

Originally Posted by Can'tHave2MuchHP

I don't think there's more drivetrain loss, it's more so because the "707" HP Hellcat engine is more like 740 HP. And I believe a Dodge engineer actually said that officially. They're underrated. They consistently dyno 610-650 RWHP, and I've seen some as high as 685 RWHP. They're inconsistent but they're CONSISTENTLY higher than what a 707 HP Automatic car should make.

As for cost per HP, yes the Hellcat engine makes a lot of power quite easily. But in reality, it just maintains that 100-120 or so RWHP delta mod for mod...Figure a Hellcat that dynos 650 RWHP stock and a ZL1 that puts down 550 RWHP. Spend $5000-$7500 on each. ZL1 makes around 650-700 RWHP and a Hellcat will make 750-800 RWHP. 900 RWHP is only happening with Injectors, E85, and other work. A typical 93 bolt on Hellcat is 800 RWHP +/- a few.

JMO. The LT4 is just handicapped by a baby blower. Just like the last ZL1 was. The only "real" blower ever put on a GM vehicle was the 2.3 on the LS9, with all the titanium parts - what an engine.

You're 100% right about the RWHP delta. However, the amount of engine work to get there is extremely skewed:

Hellcat 900 WHP: Upper Pulley, Mid-Pipe, Flex Fuel, Intake, Tune, and supporting mods.

ZL1 700 WHP: Upper Pulley, Ported Heads, Cam, Headers, Intake, Tune, and supporting mods.

[Can'tHave2MuchHP]

Originally Posted by harrist5683

You're 100% right about the RWHP delta. However, the amount of engine work to get there is extremely skewed:

Hellcat 900 WHP: Upper Pulley, Mid-Pipe, Flex Fuel, Intake, Tune, and supporting mods.

ZL1 700 WHP: Upper Pulley, Ported Heads, Cam, Headers, Intake, Tune, and supporting mods.

Numbers are a touch higher than that for a Heads/Cam/FBO LT4. Even on just 93. Heads/Cam/FBO should be in the 740+ RWHP range and Meth/E should get it to 775 RWHP or so where it about tops out just south of 800 RWHP. Still much more work than a Hellcat requires.

Many people have grabbed 675-700 RWHP on bolt ons + ported blower with the LT4. If you did full bolt ons, injectors, and E on the LT4 you could probably push 700-710 RWHP, you'd need some fuel mods, probably an aux or low side etc.

All in all, the engines are not close when it comes to mods...It's a shame too because the LT4 is a great engine underneath that pathetic blower. Put a serious PD blower or a Centrifugal blower on it and they're 900-1100 RWHP engines all day. Now of course you're into $20,000 range.

[harrist5683]

Originally Posted by Can'tHave2MuchHP

Numbers are a touch higher than that for a Heads/Cam/FBO LT4. Even on just 93. Heads/Cam/FBO should be in the 740+ RWHP range and Meth/E should get it to 775 RWHP or so where it about tops out just south of 800 RWHP. Still much more work than a Hellcat requires.

Many people have grabbed 675-700 RWHP on bolt ons + ported blower with the LT4. If you did full bolt ons, injectors, and E on the LT4 you could probably push 700-710 RWHP, you'd need some fuel mods, probably an aux or low side etc.

All in all, the engines are not close when it comes to mods...It's a shame too because the LT4 is a great engine underneath that pathetic blower. Put a serious PD blower or a Centrifugal blower on it and they're 900-1100 RWHP engines all day. Now of course you're into $20,000 range.

Agree with everything you said. One of my only gripes about the ZL1 (or Z06) is the 1.7L Eaton. Makes it almost not worth modding.

[Mister Will]

Originally Posted by shaffe

We might have to just agree to disagree. I see the ZL1 and Hellcat as about as direct comparable vehicles as you can get, and the entry price of the ZR-1 does not make it a viable option.

Fair enough. But I think the direct comparison is between the base pony cars of the Challenger and Camaro. The original question is why doesn't GM give the ZL1 more power. The answer may simply be that GM/Chevrolet already has a car with more power. However, as has already been pointed out, the intent of the cars are different. One is clearly intended to handle open road and tracks, while the other is intended for drag racing. This is evidenced by the special options (ZL1 1LE, Demon) of for both cars.

Originally Posted by harrist5683

If an answer is double the price, it's not really an answer. In my mind (and in 90% of consumer's minds), the Mustang, Camaro, and Challenger compete for sales. The ZR-1 and the Demon are in their own completely separate categories, and really shouldn't even be compared together themselves.

Essentially, the OP is wanting a GM answer (new Camaro) that is priced comparatively (or lower) than a Red Eye or GT500 with similar or better performance.

The options we are talking about here are double the price of their base models. The typical Camaro or Challenger (where both CORPs. make their money) buyer could not afford a ZL1 or a Hellcat. While the ZL1 gives some HP its still about as fast as a Hellcat. Yet, the Hellcat is slower than the Z06 which with some options is comparably priced to a base Z06.

The truth is it all comes down to personal opinion and nobody is right or wrong. I just find it interesting that the Corvette is dismissed as being in a different demographic when all of the cars have a different intent. The only thing that really makes the ZL1 and Hellcat comparable is that they were considered pony cars. Yet, the Hellcat is based on a 4 door sedan (muscle car)

[kttxz06]

Originally Posted by harrist5683

If an answer is double the price, it's not really an answer. In my mind (and in 90% of consumer's minds), the Mustang, Camaro, and Challenger compete for sales. The ZR-1 and the Demon are in their own completely separate categories, and really shouldn't even be compared together themselves.

Essentially, the OP is wanting a GM answer (new Camaro) that is priced comparatively (or lower) than a Red Eye or GT500 with similar or better performance.

The ZR1 is nowhere close to double the price. Loaded out it's $149k. The new Redeye loaded out with dealer market up is going to be in the $80k's. You can get a base ZR1 for around $120k so. Hardly double.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by Mister Will

Fair enough. But I think the direct comparison is between the base pony cars of the Challenger and Camaro. The original question is why doesn't GM give the ZL1 more power. The answer may simply be that GM/Chevrolet already has a car with more power. However, as has already been pointed out, the intent of the cars are different. One is clearly intended to handle open road and tracks, while the other is intended for drag racing. This is evidenced by the special options (ZL1 1LE, Demon) of for both cars.

The options we are talking about here are double the price of their base models. The typical Camaro or Challenger (where both CORPs. make their money) buyer could not afford a ZL1 or a Hellcat. While the ZL1 gives some HP its still about as fast as a Hellcat. Yet, the Hellcat is slower than the Z06 which with some options is comparably priced to a base Z06.

The truth is it all comes down to personal opinion and nobody is right or wrong. I just find it interesting that the Corvette is dismissed as being in a different demographic when all of the cars have a different intent. The only thing that really makes the ZL1 and Hellcat comparable is that they were considered pony cars. Yet, the Hellcat is based on a 4 door sedan (muscle car)

If you want to get technical isn't the camaro technically based on a 4 door sedan as well as that was where the Alpha platform debuted? LOL

Originally Posted by kttxz06

The ZR1 is nowhere close to double the price. Loaded out it's $149k. The new Redeye loaded out with dealer market up is going to be in the $80k's. You can get a base ZR1 for around $120k so. Hardly double.

ZR1 MSRP 123,995
ZL1 MSRP 63,435

63,435 X 2 = 126,780.

That to me makes the ZR1 almost double the cost of a ZL1, which is what was brought up.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by shaffe

You also have to shell out 60K more for said option. You could almost buy 2 ZL1's at MSRP for the entry price of a ZR-1. I also don't think people would cross shop a ZL-1 and a ZR-1, how many people cross shopped a Hellcat with an ACR?

True. I've only seen one person who traded a Hellcat for a Viper and that wasn't even the ACR. It was a SRT or one of the other lower models. It could be more because of the practicality of the Hellcat as a DD vs the impracticality of the Viper. Most people would opt for the Hellcat because it has tons more room and is way more comfortable. But you are correct.

Originally Posted by shaffe

That's part of what puzzles me so much in the sales threads. The Camaro's are such good cars, especially the ZL1. Since it has been released I have seen 2 ZL1's in the wild and one of them was pulling out of the Chevy Dealer. I see Hellcats at least once a week. I have seen maybe a dozen or so GT350's and 1 350R.

Same here. I've seen many Hellcats, quite a few Shelbys...but only 2 other ZL1s. Well, 3 other ZL1s if you count in my buddy who got his a week after I got mine. But yea they really are very hard to spot in the wild.

Originally Posted by shaffe

We might have to just agree to disagree. I see the ZL1 and Hellcat as about as direct comparable vehicles as you can get, and the entry price of the ZR-1 does not make it a viable option.

I think he is saying more so that GM is like "Hey, here is the ZL1. Oh, that isn't enough for you? Well then give us twice the money and we'll throw a ZR1 your way". So it isn't so much that the ZR1 is our answer. It's more so that if you want that option then the ZR1 is your only choice at this time.

[Stealth7]

Ahhh... LT5 in the ZL1 please!

[Mister Will]

Originally Posted by shaffe

If you want to get technical isn't the camaro technically based on a 4 door sedan as well as that was where the Alpha platform debuted? LOL

Technically the ATS is a compact, the 300 is a full size.

[Gunkk]

Originally Posted by harrist5683

Essentially, the OP is wanting a GM answer (new Camaro) that is priced comparatively (or lower) than a Red Eye or GT500 with similar or better performance.

Seems to me the OP wants a muscle car that is something else other than the ZL1 (triple threat car) and the ZR1 (supercar) ... in which case we're talking about:

Alpha 2 CT5 sized car with 2 doors and an LT5 ... and call it Chevelle SS.

Questions:
* How many Chevelles can you sell at $90-$100k?
* Why not just offer a Cadillac coupe with an LT5 and not call it Chevelle and sell it for $120k.

Sure everyone would go nuts for the Chevelle if they brought it back. But that's a lot of spend on a one-hit wonder and I don't see how GM could get the ROI on a one trick pony Chevelle.

I could see GM doing a hot rod Caddy before doing an entirely new Chevelle. Staying within an existing brand and offering the LT5 as an option makes a lot more business sense.

[harrist5683]

Originally Posted by shaffe

ZR1 MSRP 123,995
ZL1 MSRP 63,435

63,435 X 2 = 126,780.

That to me makes the ZR1 almost double the cost of a ZL1, which is what was brought up.

This is what I was referring to.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by Mister Will

Technically the ATS is a compact, the 300 is a full size.

and the CTS is a midsize, but it still stands it's built of a sedan platform lol