[stovt001]

I'm assuming the Volt will be priced out of my price range. Unless GM pulls off some really amazing things cost-wise, I don't see the Volt being practical for a new college grad. Besides, living in an apartment I have no place to plug her in. Puts a damper on the entire plug in hybrid thing.

What I'm saying is out of GM's many brands, there are 4 nearly identical crossovers, plus a couple other mid-size CUVs with more on the way, but we only have 2 affordable RWD performance cars - the Camaro and G8, and apparently if it wasn't for their already being so far along in development we wouldn't even have those. GM's new product offerings are skewed too much towards big trucks and family CUVs for my taste. Do they need them? Sure, there is a huge market for such vehicles. But don't forget those of us who want a simple RWD performance car without breaking the bank and who don't want to be driving a land yacht. The Camaro fits the bill quite nicely, but how long will it last? If it's gone, there are no other alternative. I know Scott and everyone working on the Camaro wants to see it stay for a long time to come, but you never know when someone higher up will want to kill it off.

[[KRPT]ECP]

the camaro will stay so long as it makes them money. To achieve this they'd have to 1up their competition (mainly stang and challenger) and make a name as the best car out there. From what I've seen so far, I am not worried.

as far as the volt, I remember it being stated somewhere that the base model would be somewhere in the 30k-40k range

[TFord]

stovt001 after reading this entire thread I understand what your saying. The use of more tact was needed, less declarations, more questions. Or the topic being more as you being worried about the future of our beloved RWD sports coupes, and what GM has available for those who love those cars but cant afford a Vette...but I understand your point. With the way the middle class americans are being crushed, the average person is blue collar, working class or whatever you want to call it. Everything seems to be getting more expensive and it feels like we all arent making enough money. if the new camaro V8 is around 30,000 and dealers dont have crazy markups its a great price. But at the same time I made 31K last year, so realistically I cant afford it. hell the Vette is my all time fav car, and its the best bargan for a supercar on the planet, but theres no way in hell Ill be able to get one. With the milage that was on my 01 V6 camaro I knew she didnt have much life left in her. Thats why I had to trade her in, I got a 2000 Z28 and Im paying roughly the same amount. I had to come to the realization that with me getting medically seperated from the military me getting the 5th Gen was slim to nil. though the wife didnt like it there was no way in hell I was getting anything FWD. theres really nothing thats worth getting in the midsize sports coupe that I could afford besides a used mustang or camaro. And if I wanted a V8 it was now or never. But with that being said the Imports are too expensive too. Unless you buy the base model with like a 1.1L four banger. I Love cars, and I want a car that performs. If a cant enjoy what Im driving Id rather catch the bus NO JOKE.

[TAG UR IT]

I remember the Volt being priced in the upper 20K's.

[smike07]

Originally Posted by TAG UR IT

I remember the Volt being priced in the upper 20K's.

Regardless, if it were in the mid 30s you would probably break even on what the average car payment with gas included is. I don't know about you guys, but between my wife's SUV, and my Camaro, we pay +-$400.00 per month on gas. My car is thankfully paid for, but her car payment is $410 per month. Knock the $200.00 off the gas she's paying for and that's a $600.00 car payment. That's a $35,000-40,000 car right there!

[Roflmao]

I understand where stovt001 is coming from too. I thought about it, and what car would I have looked into getting if the Camaro wasn't coming out? I don't like Ford because they have given me problems in the past, and Dodges are tanks and gas hogs. The other cars for GM are more family cars besides the Cobalt and Vette and to me the Cobalt is more of a small compact sports thing, not a muscle car by any means. The Eclipse is alright if it wasn't a "girly" car (my girlfriend wants one) and the 350Z is a cool car too. But the choices are very limited. With everything that was going to come out for RWD under GM it was exciting, and now they are putting them on hold. I probably would just save my money for a bit longer and get an Infiniti or Lexus if the Camaro wasn't coming....

Also, we need to keep in mind these projects are just on HOLD, they haven't been canceled. With there being a TON of young people in the same situation that we are, I can't imagine GM not taking advantage of that by offering more variety. They just need to revise things to meet the regulations.

[stovt001]

I'd be very impressed if GM got the Volt in for under $30K, or even in the low to mid $30K range. Either way, I have no where to plug it in and my commute will be very short next year, so the Volt isn't for me. Its great, no doubt about that, probably the most important GM vehicle to date as far as innovation, but just not for me.

Scott, please don't get me wrong. I'm still a GM fan and I'm very, very happy with what I'm seeing as the Camaro progresses. That my only real complaint is over something as minor as a gas cap speaks volumes about this car. I'd buy it even if it didn't have a V8 (but please, please still offer one). I'm just worried that the corporate culture at GM will conspire to shut down the Camaro and other vehicles like it, and I just hate to see that happen. It really is a testament to the devotion of its team, and I'd love to see what that same dedication and talent could do to other projects. Sadly it seems like many of the projects I found interesting are being shut down, and the only new stuff this year was trucks and 3 row crossovers. Like the Volt, they're all excellent vehicles, but not for me.

Also Scott, a question/observation going back to the Lambdas. Maybe you can tell me if I'm thinking along the right lines or if there is something I'm missing. First as I stated earlier I think the GMC Acadia is the most redundant, as GMC already has a decently sized lineup and has a few more in the pipeline. And as more and more GMC Pontiac and Buick dealerships merge they'll already have a Lambda in the form of the Enclave. Also, it seems that the Traverse hits the volume, value market, the Enclave hits the upscale luxurious market, and the Acadia and Outlook are fighting somewhere in between. The Outlook is Saturn's only 3-row vehicle, while GMC has the Yukon. Yeah its not a crossover, but when push comes to shove, the Saturn needs it more.

Also, Bob said earlier that Chevy already has too many models (or if not too much, enough. I can't remember which) and now we added the Traverse to that. I agree 100% that it will definitely blow the other three away when it comes to volume, and it will do a great job bringing 3 row capacity to people who can't afford a lot. But Chevy's portfolio is getting pretty bloated. What is to be done to balance the need of getting a high volume variant of a particular platform versus balancing Chevy's portfolio with the other brands?

My final question on this matter is how do the GMC, Buick, and Saturn dealers feel about the Traverse? Taking the Malibu and the Aura as an example, we can see how one model can overshadow its siblings. The Aura is a great car, but it never had the marketing it deserved and its sales just aren't up there. Then its sister car the Malibu comes out with the full might of GM's best marketing efforts behind it, and they can't keep them on the lots. Sadly, the Aura kinda got thrown under the bus in the rush, and now the reaction is "Saturn what?". So are the other brands' dealers worried the same thing will happen with the Traverse, that the marketing dollars will be stretched so thin that they suffer? And if so, wouldn't that seem to go against the contract to provide them with a profitable lineup?

Thanks.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by stovt001

and now we added the Traverse to that. I agree 100% that it will definitely blow the other three away when it comes to volume, and it will do a great job bringing 3 row capacity to people who can't afford a lot. But Chevy's portfolio is getting pretty bloated. What is to be done to balance the need of getting a high volume variant of a particular platform versus balancing Chevy's portfolio with the other brands?

Just thinking aloud...(I know you asked Scott, and not me)
But I've heard whispers that the Traverse is eventually going to replace the TrailBlazer?

[stovt001]

Oh and for what its worth, my ideal G6 replacement:

BMW 3 series size in coupe, convertible, and sedan form, RWD, 260+ hp I4 and 300+hp V6, sport tune suspension, Holden quality interior, newer Pontiac styling = WHEEEEEEEEEEEEE

And, properly luxurified, it would make a great 3 series fighter for Caddy.

So for what its worth, if GM can find the means to redo the G6 in proper sporting format, that's my request. Oh, and an actual name too, if that's not too much to ask. Another thing I like about the Camaro: by having a real name, it is part of a dying breed. I know alpha numerics are easier to work with from a legal and creative sense, there is just something more emotionally engaging about a real name.

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

Just thinking aloud...(I know you asked Scott, and not me)
But I've heard whispers that the Traverse is eventually going to replace the TrailBlazer?

Oh anyone who wants to chip in thoughts is welcome. Scott just asked for my ideas, so I'm seeing if I'm thinking along the same lines, but yes, everyone else please contribute.

I heard it is going to replace the Trailblazer too, and the Acadia will replace the Envoy. Chevy still has a huge portfolio. I also heard both a Saturn AND Chevy version of the Opel Zafira is on the table. Its more of a Mazda 5/Kia Rondo competitor, but its yet another 3 row model.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Here's something to chew on. Scott has mentioned it before, and now we hear from Wagoner.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl.../BUMDV2L4A.DTL

You mentioned a thinning of the dealer ranks and I think you used the word consolidation. Does that mean that you are taking some of the brands and putting them under one roof?

A: Exactly. One of the things that happened was the product portfolio proliferated over the years. It used to be that you had one, two or three basic Chevys, a couple of Buicks and then as the business and the proliferation and market fragmentation happened, to have a viable Buick store, you couldn't just have two Buicks. You needed five or six. We didn't have the money or the capability to sell five or six Buicks.

Over the last five years, we've been working to align Buick in the same channel with Pontiac and GMC. Last year, about 72 percent of the volume of those three franchises sold out stores, and we expect that figure to be 80 percent at the end of this year. We can have maybe four Buicks instead of six. Same thing for Pontiac.
GMC has a full lineup, but GMC doesn't have to move the cars. They can be trucks, SUVs and crossovers. Where we need to play this game is in the major metro areas. It's not a three-year assignment. You have to work at it for a long time.

Think of Pontiac to be 1/3 the size of Chevy, right? Buick is the other 1/3, and GMC the final 1/3...

I don't think anybody here said this, but (like Wagoner Said) 6+ vehicles aren't needed at Pontiac, and expecting them to come up with some isn't....practical.

[The_Blur]

Originally Posted by stovt001

http://www.leftlanenews.com/no-trans...r-pontiac.html

So we've known for a long time that the Trans-Am wasn't going to happen. But Pontiac was still supposed to get more RWD performance models beyond the G8. Well once again it sounds like GM has dropped those plans, because of the stupid lie that they can't meet the new CAFE regulations without killing off all their projects. Never mind everyone else is preparing RWD performance cars (even TOYOTA!). Never mind that Pontiac was supposed to be somewhat niche and lower volume. Never mind that GM is getting major credits for E85 capability. Never mind that RWD only takes away 1-2 mpg. Never mind that not every car has to hit 35 mpg. Never mind that they have years to get there. Nope, this is GM back to its old bad habits, taking the easy way out and killing off the good stuff then blaming other people because they don't care about making it happen. It seems like the Camaro is the last performance car we'll see out of GM that someone actually cared and put the effort into. What a way to go out, and if this was going to be the last great car from GM then we certainly have a good one, but still, this is just getting to be too much. Ford is developing some really cool V6s, ones I actually wouldn't mind owning. Honda and Toyota even have some RWD performance cars on the way. Mazda is developing the next RX8 or something similar. What do we get from GM? Excuses and project after project axed. CAFE is stupid, yes, but it affects everyone. Yet while everyone else is innovating to deal with it, GM is just sitting on their hands crying about it. You all know how much I loved the idea of the Alpha platform, and its just a kick in the gut every time they come closer to fully canceling it along with all of their other cool plans. Pretty soon GM will be making nothing but Aveos, blaming CAFE all day long while everyone else is making the performance cars we all love. If this is the way GM is headed, I'll be jumping ship after the Camaro.

I love GM. I remember bad GM cars, but that doesn't take away from cars with heritage and tradition and big-point inspections for every vehicle. They do good work when a car needs to be fixed, and GM earns that #1 spot. GM is a great company; however, GM is just a company. GM makes terrible mistakes, just like everybody else, and this is a catastrophic mistake. The CAFE regulations are serious handicaps for performance cars. I don't want to discuss why we need these regulations, but we do need them to force companies to innovate. GM will either cope with traditional Yankee ingenuity or GM will lose its customers and clients to those who produce better cars—higher performance, longer-lasting parts, more luxuries—for the same price. It's competition, and everyone has to do it. CAFE regulations aren't the federal government's way of sticking it to GM. The last thing the US government wants to do is kill large US corporations. That would devastate the US economy and make Americans even more reliant on imported goods. GM is giving 100 million excuses for not producing when it needs to produce. We don't want excuses. GM needs to suck it up and say, "These CAFE regulations are tough, but we are going to go on with our projects and do our best." It's called innovation, and GM has been mastering innovation for a century, so this complaining really gets to me. I expect better from GM.