[13vertss]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

An auto ZL1 starts at nearly $67k with dest., etc. $74k (with dest.) for the GT500 with it's additional 110 hp and a DCT is not that far fetched. I have heard of some people getting a base GT500 for msrp.

A auto ZL1 1LE is cheaper then a base GT500 with Recaros. plus the zl1 has more tech. If you add the tech package to the gt500 base, your near $4000 more then the 1le

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by NW-99SS

Lol, that's why no matter that the N54 is notoriously issue prone - I am keeping ours as it is manual and I love daily driving it. I will just do the major issue fixes ahead of time.

Good choice!!

[Baldilocks01SS]

Originally Posted by NW-99SS

Weird logic...in this way of thinking, DCT is inferior old tech and you should be hailing Tesla's - got yours yet?

It's coming. Next question?

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by Baldilocks01SS

It's coming. Next question?

I have quite a few around this topic.

This is an argument that has been going on for years and years. Heck, even Porsche discontinued the manual transmission, only to realize that some buyers would choose a more engaging driving experience over a faster shift, and not offering a manual was a mistake.

Is there maybe something inherently different about Corvette buyers that maybe this doesn't apply? I think traditionally it seems so, but will the mid-engine design bring more non-traditional Corvette buyers that share the same mindset with these potential Porsche buyers? Is the difficulty in making a manual transmission work in the mid-engine chassis really more at play than anything else in GMs decision to not offer a manual? I think so, but I also wonder if the manual buyers are a dying breed. I do feel like less and less people want 3 pedals, younger generations cant text and drive a manual after all.

Maybe it will all but disappear, but I think for a while to come those that crave a manual transmission will have options. If GM doesn't decide to go that route with the ME Vette, thats okay....they still offer the ZL1/ZLE in manual, and I have always lusted over a 911 .

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

What is CF on the base GT500? It is a heavy beast no doubt. Didn't you look up the weight of the DCT a while back and it's something like 100 lbs heavier than an M6? I would guess it's about 40-50 lbs heavier than the ZL1's beefed up A10.

I am still baffled as to why they couldn't keep the weight closer to 4,000 lbs, or at least under 4,100 lbs in the base GT500.

That said, similar to the ZR1 being around 100 lbs heavier than the Z06, an LT5 powered ZL1 would be about 100 lbs heavier than the LT4 ZL1. Which would put the auto LT5 ZL1 at around 4,050 lbs.

It would also be more expensive than the LT4 powered ZL1, most likely in-line with the base GT500. If you think GM would put the LT5 in the ZL1 and not increase the price significantly, and if you think an LT5 powered ZL1 wouldn't also be heavier than the LT4 ZL1, I have some ocean front property in AZ I could sell you.

I agree that an lt5 zl1 would obviously gain weight and price, but it would still be cheaper to actually get a hold of than equivalently optioned/packaged gt500s even if both models of zl1 went up by 10k. My guess would be a defined lt5 if it happened at all.

Gaining 100 pounds similar to the zr1 wouldn't be unrealistic, also trim for trim the zr1 didn't quite gain 100 pounds, but it could possibly be slightly less as the zr1 had a lot of cooling over the z06 that needed to be added, where as the zl1s already had the appropriate cooling, though the zr1 also had some carbon fiber bits to make up for some of the gained weight so that might be a moot point.

Still a 3900lbs zl1 1le and 4000lbs zl1 isn't 4200 pounds bad. I think an lt5 zl1 would clean sweep a gt500 on a track but would still lose in a straight line due to all the torque management and protections a stock zl1 has that limit it's ability.

[Baldilocks01SS]

Originally Posted by ST1LE

I have quite a few around this topic.

This is an argument that has been going on for years and years. Heck, even Porsche discontinued the manual transmission, only to realize that some buyers would choose a more engaging driving experience over a faster shift, and not offering a manual was a mistake.

Is there maybe something inherently different about Corvette buyers that maybe this doesn't apply? I think traditionally it seems so, but will the mid-engine design bring more non-traditional Corvette buyers that share the same mindset with these potential Porsche buyers? Is the difficulty in making a manual transmission work in the mid-engine chassis really more at play than anything else in GMs decision to not offer a manual? I think so, but I also wonder if the manual buyers are a dying breed. I do feel like less and less people want 3 pedals, younger generations cant text and drive a manual after all.

Maybe it will all but disappear, but I think for a while to come those that crave a manual transmission will have options. If GM doesn't decide to go that route with the ME Vette, thats okay....they still offer the ZL1/ZLE in manual, and I have always lusted over a 911 .

It's the question of cost and return. When less than 20% of buyers opt for the manual, is it worth spending the R&D to develop a bespoke system that works on only one car? That's not GM's MO. That, along with the disparity in performance, I think, has killed the manual for the Corvette.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

...and heavy.

I thought I had that in there lol. But yes also why its so heavy.

Originally Posted by ST1LE

I have quite a few around this topic.

This is an argument that has been going on for years and years. Heck, even Porsche discontinued the manual transmission, only to realize that some buyers would choose a more engaging driving experience over a faster shift, and not offering a manual was a mistake.

Is there maybe something inherently different about Corvette buyers that maybe this doesn't apply? I think traditionally it seems so, but will the mid-engine design bring more non-traditional Corvette buyers that share the same mindset with these potential Porsche buyers? Is the difficulty in making a manual transmission work in the mid-engine chassis really more at play than anything else in GMs decision to not offer a manual? I think so, but I also wonder if the manual buyers are a dying breed. I do feel like less and less people want 3 pedals, younger generations cant text and drive a manual after all.

Maybe it will all but disappear, but I think for a while to come those that crave a manual transmission will have options. If GM doesn't decide to go that route with the ME Vette, thats okay....they still offer the ZL1/ZLE in manual, and I have always lusted over a 911 .

Well I think the main difference is when Porsche dropped the manual and then added it back in the car had previously had one. Making it easy to go back and add it. The C8 was designed with never having a manual in mind, and is still also a Chevy and needs to be affordable. It also seems like when Porsche did it, they did it purely for a performance standpoint, while it seems GM is doing it from a business standpoint. If you take Tadge and other corvette engineers for their word they said it simply wasn't economically feasible to find someone to design the transmission for 2,000 cars per year based on how fast the M7 take rate plummeted in the C7. The only way I could see them going back and offering it, would be to charge quite the hefty price for it, a la the painted stripes on the GT500. Basically a we really don't want to do it but if you got the $ we will.

Originally Posted by Baldilocks01SS

It's the question of cost and return. When less than 20% of buyers opt for the manual, is it worth spending the R&D to develop a bespoke system that works on only one car? That's not GM's MO. That, along with the disparity in performance, I think, has killed the manual for the Corvette.

That's pretty much exactly what Tadge said. It wasn't worth the money to develop it for such a low take rate

Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87

I agree that an lt5 zl1 would obviously gain weight and price, but it would still be cheaper to actually get a hold of than equivalently optioned/packaged gt500s even if both models of zl1 went up by 10k. My guess would be a defined lt5 if it happened at all.

Gaining 100 pounds similar to the zr1 wouldn't be unrealistic, also trim for trim the zr1 didn't quite gain 100 pounds, but it could possibly be slightly less as the zr1 had a lot of cooling over the z06 that needed to be added, where as the zl1s already had the appropriate cooling, though the zr1 also had some carbon fiber bits to make up for some of the gained weight so that might be a moot point.

Still a 3900lbs zl1 1le and 4000lbs zl1 isn't 4200 pounds bad. I think an lt5 zl1 would clean sweep a gt500 on a track but would still lose in a straight line due to all the torque management and protections a stock zl1 has that limit it's ability.

I think an LT5 Camaro would dominate anything and everything.

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by Baldilocks01SS

It's the question of cost and return. When less than 20% of buyers opt for the manual, is it worth spending the R&D to develop a bespoke system that works on only one car? That's not GM's MO. That, along with the disparity in performance, I think, has killed the manual for the Corvette.

I think I saw some figures for 2018 corvettes that had the manual sales way lower than 20%. I suspect there's a lot of people who cry about manuals dying or how they should have a manual option for the c8 and gt500 but when given a chance buy an auto.

As a side note, the disparity in performance of manual c7s vs the autos isn't all that great and pretty much only in a straight line, but in a manual you have to work for it.

[Baldilocks01SS]

Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87

As a side note, the disparity in performance of manual c7s vs the autos isn't all that great and pretty much only in a straight line, but in a manual you have to work for it.

I was referring to the C8 as the DCT is a much different beast than a regular auto. The only thing that Chevy has that comes close to the DCT in the C8 is the A10.

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by Baldilocks01SS

I was referring to the C8 as the DCT is a much different beast than a regular auto. The only thing that Chevy has that comes close to the DCT in the C8 is the A10.

Oh no arguments there, you cited a disparity in performance not a potential disparity so I assumed you meant the c7 auto vs manual. I'm sure a manual version c8 would be behind the dct in every metric.

[Baldilocks01SS]

Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87

Oh no arguments there, you cited a disparity in performance not a potential disparity so I assumed you meant the c7 auto vs manual. I'm sure a manual version c8 would be behind the dct in every metric.

I'm willing to bet so far behind that it would make no sense to offer one -- at least one that's not electronic.

[Gunkk]

Originally Posted by Baldilocks01SS

It's the question of cost and return. When less than 20% of buyers opt for the manual, is it worth spending the R&D to develop a bespoke system that works on only one car? That's not GM's MO. That, along with the disparity in performance, I think, has killed the manual for the Corvette.

Well isn't everything (but the door switch) already 100% bespoke on the C8?

I would look at it another way: would the customer pay +$20k for a manual? Would they sell 5% * 40k cars * $20k = $40mil incremental revenue or just 1% more cars @ $8mil incremental? $40mil would easily cover costs and then some. $8mil not so much.

9/10ths a marketing weasel and a beancounter did the projections and probably came up at the lower end, so they killed it.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by Gunkk

Well isn't everything (but the door switch) already 100% bespoke on the C8?

I would look at it another way: would the customer pay +$20k for a manual? Would they sell 5% * 40k cars * $20k = $40mil incremental revenue or just 1% more cars @ $8mil incremental? $40mil would easily cover costs and then some. $8mil not so much.

9/10ths a marketing weasel and a beancounter did the projections and probably came up at the lower end, so they killed it.

And there in lies the problem, what would people pay for it that it would justify it's existence.

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by 13vertss

A auto ZL1 1LE is cheaper then a base GT500 with Recaros. plus the zl1 has more tech. If you add the tech package to the gt500 base, your near $4000 more then the 1le

And that ZLE is going to get embarrased on the street and strip, you know where people actually drive their cars. If your going to compare a ZL1 to a GT500 base, the ZL1 is a much better comparison, it actually wont throw your back out and rattle your dental fillings loose on the street, and it's faster.