[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

Wait, you retired not long ago and worked on the powertrain side of the process? That means you know about the new engines that are being developed right now? Like:

1. The base engine for the upcoming mid-engine 'vette (that would probably be the SS engine for the Gen7 Camaro).

2. The new DOHC V8's, both the twin turbo, and possibly the N/A version that Chevy is developing for the mid-engine 'vette.

I know you can't leak any company secrets on a Camaro website, but can we meet for some drinks???? I'm buying!!!

I’m down, but you would not leave any smarter than you came in. In fact, probably less smart due to brain cells sacrificing themselves for the cause.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by Chadicus

I agree. I just think a 3 second gap is too large to overcome without stepping on the 350s toes which I don't think they will do.

I actually would love to see the PP2 step on the GT350's toes at this point. Since it is already beating the GT350 in the quarter mile. And has just about the same options. I would find it hilarious if it beat the SS 1 LE and either equaled the GT350R or outright beat it...all for way less than the MSRP of the Shelby. Which means, Ford could have built GT350(R) performance all this time for way less than they charged. And everyone who bought one and paid markups, just to have a GT come out a year or two later and outright beat it...well that would make me happier than Donald Trump in a room full of high priced hookers!!

One thing about Chevy is that they would never step on ZL1 toes in any performance aspect with a lower model in the same Generation. Ford not only seems to have been overcharging for the performance they've been putting out, but now it seems that they're gonna further slap these fools in the face with the GT PP2. Gotta love it.

[BlaqWhole]

And I'll add...they're still being skimpy. They could very well have combined the Bullitt's engine with the PP2 and given it the option of having the A10 or M6. Chevy would have done that for sure to bury the competition. But not Ford. They could have done this instead of the FPC and CF wheels which skyrocketed the price of the GT350 and it would have still been at about the same performance of the Shelby and would have had enough money left over to throw some options in the car as standard. They would have had a car that would be faster than the Shelby in the quarter mile, on par in cornering, more options as standard, and costed much less.

[FastCarFanBoy]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

They could very well have combined the Bullitt's engine with the PP2 and given it the option of having the A10 or M6. Chevy would have done that for sure to bury the competition. But not Ford. They could have done this instead of the FPC and CF wheels which skyrocketed the price of the GT350 and it would have still been at about the same performance of the Shelby and would have had enough money left over to throw some options in the car as standard. .

you are comparing cars built 3yrs apart... WTF do CF wheels and a FPC have to do with a motor and trans built 3yrs later?

you do understand that the Voodoo is 80% of the appeal of the car , right?

...also the $75k MSRP Z28 would like to have a word with you about GM performance generosity.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy

you are comparing cars built 3yrs apart... WTF do CF wheels and a FPC have to do with a motor and trans built 3yrs later?

you do understand that the Voodoo is 80% of the appeal of the car , right?

...also the $75k MSRP Z28 would like to have a word with you about GM performance generosity.

Thing is, GM didn’t flinch at delivering a $45,000 1LE that performs on par with (better than?) the outgoing $75,000 Z/28. It does seem like Ford is handcuffing the GT PP1 / PP2 to keep from encroaching on the GT350.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy

you are comparing cars built 3yrs apart... WTF do CF wheels and a FPC have to do with a motor and trans built 3yrs later?

you do understand that the Voodoo is 80% of the appeal of the car , right?

...also the $75k MSRP Z28 would like to have a word with you about GM performance generosity.

Did you even read what I wrote?

CF wheels alone were $4K each. That Voodoo engine was over $20K. It was more expensive than even the supercharged Hellcat engine from oil pan to blower, lol!! So that right there is $36K...more than half the price of the damn car. I don't care what the appeal of the car is. It was expensive as shit and we're seeing that it might get it's ass handed to it by the cheaper GT in the same Generation. And the Z28 in the Generation it was made was not beaten by any other Camaro in a lesser tier. At best the ZL1 tied it in the quarter mile. But no other Camaro that was cheaper could beat it in anything.

And you Mustang guys have the most bullshit excuses I've ever seen. "the Voodoo is 80%..." it is 80% bullshit. That is what it is. They could have built a better performing car for less money. And guess what, if nobody ever heard of the "Voodoo", then nobody would ever care about it or miss it. They suckered a bunch of chumps into buying an expensive stripped down car that in it's same generation is already getting beaten in a quarter mile by the 50% cheaper GT and just might get toasted on a track by the 50% cheaper GT PP2. Maybe this is the reason why Ford keeps nickel and diming people. Because they know you'll just make up an excuse and throw them even more of your money. Meanwhile the Camaro is soo potent from the start that it doesn't even need to add much but it still takes the Mustang some heavy alterations just to be in the same league.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Thing is, GM didn’t flinch at delivering a $45,000 1LE that performs on par with (better than?) the outgoing $75,000 Z/28. It does seem like Ford is handcuffing the GT PP1 / PP2 to keep from encroaching on the GT350.

I think the reason why is because FOrd was happy with the GT350 outperforming the 5th Gen Z Camaros and didn't figure that GM had something monstrous in the works. So they capped themselves and now can't break that cap. But again, I hop I'm wrong and Ford DOES eclipse the Shelby with the GT. That would be awesome considering how people paid markups on the Shelby.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Did you even read what I wrote?

CF wheels alone were $4K each. That Voodoo engine was over $20K. It was more expensive than even the supercharged Hellcat engine from oil pan to blower, lol!! So that right there is $36K...more than half the price of the damn car. I don't care what the appeal of the car is. It was expensive as shit and we're seeing that it might get it's ass handed to it by the cheaper GT in the same Generation. And the Z28 in the Generation it was made was not beaten by any other Camaro in a lesser tier. At best the ZL1 tied it in the quarter mile. But no other Camaro that was cheaper could beat it in anything.

And you Mustang guys have the most bullshit excuses I've ever seen. "the Voodoo is 80%..." it is 80% bullshit. That is what it is. They could have built a better performing car for less money. And guess what, if nobody ever heard of the "Voodoo", then nobody would ever care about it or miss it. They suckered a bunch of chumps into buying an expensive stripped down car that in it's same generation is already getting beaten in a quarter mile by the 50% cheaper GT and just might get toasted on a track by the 50% cheaper GT PP2. Maybe this is the reason why Ford keeps nickel and diming people. Because they know you'll just make up an excuse and throw them even more of your money. Meanwhile the Camaro is soo potent from the start that it doesn't even need to add much but it still takes the Mustang some heavy alterations just to be in the same league.

The GT350 should have been retired so the PP1 and PP2 could shine. By 2017, the GT350 and the Voodoo FPC engine looked like the Rube Goldberg of pony cars. Unnecessarily complicated in design and construction for what it delivered in comparison to the $45 SS 1LE. ...the “parts bin car built on a sedan chassis.”

[FastCarFanBoy]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Thing is, GM didn’t flinch at delivering a $45,000 1LE that performs on par with (better than?) the outgoing $75,000 Z/28. It does seem like Ford is handcuffing the GT PP1 / PP2 to keep from encroaching on the GT350.

...In the next generation. Just as ford delivered a PP S550 GT that handled as well as a S197 Boss. GM never offered and would have been foolish to offer a 1LE that encroached on the Z28 in the same generation.

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Did you even read what I wrote?

CF wheels alone were $4K each. That Voodoo engine was over $20K. It was more expensive than even the supercharged Hellcat engine from oil pan to blower, lol!! So that right there is $36K...more than half the price of the damn car. I don't care what the appeal of the car is. It was expensive as shit and we're seeing that it might get it's ass handed to it by the cheaper GT in the same Generation. And the Z28 in the Generation it was made was not beaten by any other Camaro in a lesser tier. At best the ZL1 tied it in the quarter mile. But no other Camaro that was cheaper could beat it in anything.

And you Mustang guys have the most bullshit excuses I've ever seen. "the Voodoo is 80%..." it is 80% bullshit. That is what it is. They could have built a better performing car for less money. And guess what, if nobody ever heard of the "Voodoo", then nobody would ever care about it or miss it. They suckered a bunch of chumps into buying an expensive stripped down car that in it's same generation is already getting beaten in a quarter mile by the 50% cheaper GT and just might get toasted on a track by the 50% cheaper GT PP2. Maybe this is the reason why Ford keeps nickel and diming people. Because they know you'll just make up an excuse and throw them even more of your money. Meanwhile the Camaro is soo potent from the start that it doesn't even need to add much but it still takes the Mustang some heavy alterations just to be in the same league.

you really seem to be butt hurt by the Shelby. Where are the butt hurt Shelby owners? The Z28 was dead and forgotten after 2 yrs... The 350 is in its 4th yr still with ADM. I dont see where Ford made a mistake.

you must not understand how amazing CF wheels are for a dedicated track car...and $4k is a price hardcore track rats would gladly pay. You don't track your cars and even when you hit the strip you dont really care what the car runs.

[SpeedIsLife]

Originally Posted by hotlap

The GT350 should have been retired so the PP1 and PP2 could shine. By 2017, the GT350 and the Voodoo FPC engine looked like the Rube Goldberg of pony cars. Unnecessarily complicated in design and construction for what it delivered in comparison to the $45 SS 1LE. ...the “parts bin car built on a sedan chassis.”

I suspect the original plan was for the GT350 to be retired after the 2 MY's and for the GT500 to take over the halo position..but there were delays so the GT350 had to hold on another year.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

I actually would love to see the PP2 step on the GT350's toes at this point. Since it is already beating the GT350 in the quarter mile. And has just about the same options. I would find it hilarious if it beat the SS 1 LE and either equaled the GT350R or outright beat it...all for way less than the MSRP of the Shelby. Which means, Ford could have built GT350(R) performance all this time for way less than they charged. And everyone who bought one and paid markups, just to have a GT come out a year or two later and outright beat it...well that would make me happier than Donald Trump in a room full of high priced hookers!!

One thing about Chevy is that they would never step on ZL1 toes in any performance aspect with a lower model in the same Generation. Ford not only seems to have been overcharging for the performance they've been putting out, but now it seems that they're gonna further slap these fools in the face with the GT PP2. Gotta love it.

Maybe overcharging, I think once we see what the PP2 can do we will know for sure. but it is looking that way.

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

And I'll add...they're still being skimpy. They could very well have combined the Bullitt's engine with the PP2 and given it the option of having the A10 or M6. Chevy would have done that for sure to bury the competition. But not Ford. They could have done this instead of the FPC and CF wheels which skyrocketed the price of the GT350 and it would have still been at about the same performance of the Shelby and would have had enough money left over to throw some options in the car as standard. They would have had a car that would be faster than the Shelby in the quarter mile, on par in cornering, more options as standard, and costed much less.

Chevy would not have. If they would have why no A10 in the 1LE or ZLE?

Now The Bullitt engine is interesting though. Yes that would be awesome to see in the GT and I would bet you a sandwich it becomes the base GT engine once the Bullitt run is done. Ford is giving it the extra power to make it more than just a paint/decorative package.

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Thing is, GM didn’t flinch at delivering a $45,000 1LE that performs on par with (better than?) the outgoing $75,000 Z/28. It does seem like Ford is handcuffing the GT PP1 / PP2 to keep from encroaching on the GT350.

I don't know if they are handcuffing it from the GT350. I think they went all in while keeping cost in check to make it comparible to 1LE. As far as the 350, I think they are only making it as a hold over, because the GT500 isn't ready yet.

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

I think the reason why is because FOrd was happy with the GT350 outperforming the 5th Gen Z Camaros and didn't figure that GM had something monstrous in the works. So they capped themselves and now can't break that cap. But again, I hop I'm wrong and Ford DOES eclipse the Shelby with the GT. That would be awesome considering how people paid markups on the Shelby.

This ^ The 350R was a total D*** measuring contest. And I think Ford did get caught with their pants down. I don't think anyone expected the Alpha 1LE to be as good as it is.

Originally Posted by hotlap

The GT350 should have been retired so the PP1 and PP2 could shine. By 2017, the GT350 and the Voodoo FPC engine looked like the Rube Goldberg of pony cars. Unnecessarily complicated in design and construction for what it delivered in comparison to the $45 SS 1LE. ...the “parts bin car built on a sedan chassis.”

I agree that the 350 should have been retired at EOP in 17. If you look at it's equipment, it didn't get any of the stuff from the refresh. It looks to me like a total hold over model building them just because they can or because the GT500 isn't ready yet.

Originally Posted by SpeedIsLife

I suspect the original plan was for the GT350 to be retired after the 2 MY's and for the GT500 to take over the halo position..but there were delays so the GT350 had to hold on another year.

This ^

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by SpeedIsLife

I suspect the original plan was for the GT350 to be retired after the 2 MY's and for the GT500 to take over the halo position..but there were delays so the GT350 had to hold on another year.

It would have looked better to retire the GT350 and punch Chevy between the eyes in 2018 with the Bullet engine in the GT for a dominant PP1 and PP2. As it unfolded, they took three years to close the gap but didn’t pull ahead.

The GT500s delay should guarantee it won’t just be a 1/4 mile terror and they are aiming at the ZL1 1LEs track prowess. The 1/4 mile part should be easy.

Great times. I can’t wait to see what the next few years bring.

[whiteboyblues2001]

Originally Posted by SpeedIsLife

I suspect the original plan was for the GT350 to be retired after the 2 MY's and for the GT500 to take over the halo position..but there were delays so the GT350 had to hold on another year.

The GT350 came out as a 2015MY. So, a two year run would have been '15 and '16. They made '17's and '18's, and I think they are going to make '19's too. That's three extra years, not one.

I have also suspected that the GT500 had some major delays, because of how good the ZL1 and ZL1 1LE turned out to be and also the Demon. But, there is no way to know for sure...

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by shaffe

Chevy would not have. If they would have why no A10 in the 1LE or ZLE?

Because the A10 in the ZL1 1LE would not have made it perform any better on the track. And it would have bumped up the cost of the car although I suspect some (myself included) would have gladly paid for it along with a sunroof. Plus none of the competition right now can even match the standard ZL1 which says a lot.

Ford nerfed the GT and GT350 and they did it so they could milk every penny they can from these suckers. Pay X amount for the GT350. But then you have to add this or that package in if you want certain options. Other options are not available. Other options can't be combined with this or that option package. Then lets up the GT but we'll throw more HP in the same engine and call it the "Bullitt" and charge even more money for it. But let's withhold the A10 trans from that. But the standard GT gets the A10. And now the PP2 gets the manual trans. All these bits and pieces yet they're all coming out to the same mid $50K once you add in all the options that other cars have as standard and that is even if you can combine this and that option package.