[USAFS197]

Interesting thread. I thoroughly love Mustangs and I’m enthused every time Ford comes up with new variants of their Mustang. I do find myself concerned, though, when the offerings are incomplete. I wish they would have made a more concerted effort on their part to make sure that everything was squared away with cooling from the factory.

Also, I have to chime in on the sentiment about the 19+ Camaro. I do find them to be outstandingly unattractive but, their quick tease/revision for the front end makes up for it quite a bit. I hope that sales don’t taper off because of it.

Lastly, I’d be in a GT350 right now if Ford dealerships weren’t playing games with markups when I was in the market for a car.

[IOMike]

I think it's clear that while GM built a better Camaro than the 5th gen, the demand is tapering off. In my opinion it's due a lot to gunslit windows (not only affect visibility but negatively affect the appearance), slightly too small of a back seat and to a small degree the trunk size

I hope team Camaro learned their lesson and will move away from the gunslit windows. It's obvious they're not working. It's funny I see 5th gen Camaros and the windows are bigger than I remember. I guess seeing 6th gens did that.

[TRZ06]

Originally Posted by IOMike

I think it's clear that while GM built a better Camaro than the 5th gen, the demand is tapering off. In my opinion it's due a lot to gunslit windows (not only affect visibility but negatively affect the appearance), slightly too small of a back seat and to a small degree the trunk size

I hope team Camaro learned their lesson and will move away from the gunslit windows. It's obvious they're not working. It's funny I see 5th gen Camaros and the windows are bigger than I remember. I guess seeing 6th gens did that.

You are probably right for the masses. I however think differently. I think of it as a world class sports car that can hang with the likes of Porsche. Sports cars always will have visibility limitations. I actually like the "fighter cockpit" tight feel of the interior, makes me feel like I am sitting in it rather than sitting on top of it.

However the problem is I am in the minority and the Camaro is a mass produced product trying to appeal to the masses.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by TRZ06

You are probably right for the masses. I however think differently. I think of it as a world class sports car that can hang with the likes of Porsche. Sports cars always will have visibility limitations. I actually like the "fighter cockpit" tight feel of the interior, makes me feel like I am sitting in it rather than sitting on top of it.

However the problem is I am in the minority and the Camaro is a mass produced product trying to appeal to the masses.

^^ This. Every word of this.

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by GTSLOW

I'd just like to point out something. If a non-mustang owner comments on anything over on M6G they get flamed as a troll or what not. Over here we're open to discussion. The maturity, for the most part, between here and M6G is quite different.

Carry on.

You are correct. I was banned over on M6G for stating back when the 15 GT came out that it was slower than the 5th Gen SS as well as 392 Scatpack, they did not want to hear the truth. When the 6th Gen came out their heads exploded and deleted all my posts.

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by Deki

I just optioned out a 2ss 1LE and it comes out under 50k. To get the same stuff on a GT, you're at around 53k. The benefit is, the 1LE comes with the recaros and NPP included. With Ford, Recaros are a $1,600 option. Active exhaust is another $900. Plus, you're forced to get the 401A pack, with the digital cluster, for another 2 grand. So the PP2 bumped the price of GT premium by 8500 to 8700 bucks. Ford needs to figure out their pricing. If someone is looking for a track toy, doesn't make sense to buy a PP2, because then you'd still have to invest in additional coolers just to keep it out of limp mode.

I think the issue is we assume that the buyers of these cars are looking for a track toy. I think the majority of folks like the more aggressive looks of the 1LE and PP2 over the standard models, they also enjoy the increased street performance. Ford wants you to jump to the GT350 if you want a true track warrior, and why wouldn't you. If you are going to spend 53K on a GT, why not spend another 7K for the GT350. Or be smart and for the price of a new GT PP2 or 1LE you could be driving a lightly used ZL1 or GT350.

[Laststandard]

Originally Posted by newmoon

I think the issue is we assume that the buyers of these cars are looking for a track toy. I think the majority of folks like the more aggressive looks of the 1LE and PP2 over the standard models, they also enjoy the increased street performance. Ford wants you to jump to the GT350 if you want a true track warrior, and why wouldn't you. If you are going to spend 53K on a GT, why not spend another 7K for the GT350. Or be smart and for the price of a new GT PP2 or 1LE you could be driving a lightly used ZL1 or GT350.

Let me know when I can get a lightly used ZL1 or GT350 for 40k

Originally Posted by IOMike

In my opinion it's due a lot to gunslit windows (not only affect visibility but negatively affect the appearance), slightly too small of a back seat and to a small degree the trunk size

What I've always found funny, is that so many concept car drawings that people fawn over have the high beltline, low roof, big wheels.. even the M6G guys think the '7th gen' mustang concept drawings (drawn by random people, not Ford) that have the gunslit windows are the cool looking ones.

And along comes the Camaro team, who puts out a car that actually looks like those drawings.. and all of the sudden people are surprised that styling choices may not lead to the most practical car...

[NW-99SS]

Originally Posted by Deki

I was one of those 85,000 that bought a 4th Gen and puppy kicked Mustangs on the street for years.

Camaro just got released the year prior, and was still riding the wave of the fresh new styling. It still wasn't worth a shit until 2012, when the FE4 suspension update happened. I think since then, Ford has been playing catch up in track performance. The gap widened even more with the alpha platform.



I don't know where you're getting "significantly cheaper" from. I paid more for my GT with similar options to a 1LE, and I got a sweet deal. I could have gotten a comparably equipped 1LE for over 1,000 less. That's a negligible difference in price.

Great post! I was also in the 85,000 an still have my 4th gen.

Originally Posted by IOMike

I think it's clear that while GM built a better Camaro than the 5th gen, the demand is tapering off. In my opinion it's due a lot to gunslit windows (not only affect visibility but negatively affect the appearance), slightly too small of a back seat and to a small degree the trunk size

I hope team Camaro learned their lesson and will move away from the gunslit windows. It's obvious they're not working. It's funny I see 5th gen Camaros and the windows are bigger than I remember. I guess seeing 6th gens did that.

I have commented on Camaro demand before - the 5th gen success had a lot to do with the hiatus from 2003-2009. People were excited they could finally buy a new Camaro again, the semi-retro styling was all the rage, and *gasp*, GM even marketed the Camaro through a popular movie series (at the time), and commercials.

Where the demand starts to drop, isn't from a performance or enthusiast point of view - the 6th gen is leaps and bounds better than the 5th. Lighter, better handling, more power, better interior, the list goes on.

Everyone forgets that GM offers two options for performance cars. Camaro owners tend to transition to Corvettes (some come back, some don't). Mustang owners have no other performance options from Ford (500K apply to own can't even be a consideration).

So Camaro has more than one sales battle. They have the pony car wars with Ford and Dodge, plus a maturing owner base that tends to move up to the Corvette (I did, just went to an old Vette, lol)

Originally Posted by newmoon

You are correct. I was banned over on M6G for stating back when the 15 GT came out that it was slower than the 5th Gen SS as well as 392 Scatpack, they did not want to hear the truth. When the 6th Gen came out their heads exploded and deleted all my posts.

I'm not a member on any forum where I don't own the product they represent, but from the sounds of it, M6G is about the same as the Mustang fan base on social media. No thanks...

[whiteboyblues2001]

Originally Posted by Deki

Bang for buck, you can't beat the Camaro. Even a base SS is still a damn good handling car. 1LE, even more so. Not a whole lot of cars under $60k that can run with high end Porsche and exotic offerings.

I can validate this opinion. I was doing an HPDE at Summit Point Main, and got behind two 911 GT3's in the pit lane. We were the first ones on the track. Once we started off, I was on the second one's butt so much, he gave me a point by pretty early on, and I spent the whole session in between the two. After the session was over, both drivers came right over to me to ask me about my car. They were so amazed that my regular old Chevy Camaro (SS non-1LE) could keep up that well.

Now, I must say that the 911 GT3 is clearly a significantly faster car with a same driver same day situation. That's not my point. The point is, when you get off the track and two different 911 GT3 owners start fawning over your car, it's probably a good one.

[Bench racers]

Originally Posted by GTSLOW

I'd just like to point out something. If a non-mustang owner comments on anything over on M6G they get flamed as a troll or what not. Over here we're open to discussion. The maturity, for the most part, between here and M6G is quite different.

Carry on.

A lot of things about MG is true but this statement idk....I see the exact same shit over here...

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by Bench racers

A lot of things about MG is true but this statement idk....I see the exact same shit over here...

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by Bench racers

A lot of things about MG is true but this statement idk....I see the exact same shit over here...

HAHAHAHAHA.....welcome to the forum?

[Bosse'sBoss]

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

I can validate this opinion. I was doing an HPDE at Summit Point Main, and got behind two 911 GT3's in the pit lane. We were the first ones on the track. Once we started off, I was on the second one's butt so much, he gave me a point by pretty early on, and I spent the whole session in between the two. After the session was over, both drivers came right over to me to ask me about my car. They were so amazed that my regular old Chevy Camaro (SS non-1LE) could keep up that well.

Now, I must say that the 911 GT3 is clearly a significantly faster car with a same driver same day situation. That's not my point. The point is, when you get off the track and two different 911 GT3 owners start fawning over your car, it's probably a good one.

[Chevy1LE]

Drove a fairly new stock GT350 on track and was sold on someday having one. 2 years later I'm in a 1SS1LE of my own on track. The GT350 is a great car. The brakes and exhaust note are all I find I liked more. I bought the 1LE with track in mind and it delivers. I love cars but for me, if I hadn't intended to track a car I would not have considered either car.