[Silverado57]

Originally Posted by Frank237

So! How about those Yankees!

[wnta1ss]

Originally Posted by oldman

lowering springs are just that, it is a complete assumption that the car will handle better. Also are the alignment specs the same SS vs 1LE, if not .5 degrees of camber is a world of difference. From my experience lowering springs always perform poorly on the track...

You seem to misunderand. The post that I was answering was thinking that taking an SS with the A10 and adding 1LE suspension and tires might make it quicker around a track than the 1LE. His reasoning was that the ZL1/1LE now being available with the A10 is theoretically quicker around the track than the M6. My example for the SS was GM's testing where they installed the lowering kit and FE4 sway bars and the SS improved it's track time, then added 1LE tires/wheels and it improved yet more. However, the modded SS was still 2 sec a lap slower than the SS/1LE. The SS/1LE still had some things that the SS lacked: eLSD, PTM, and the 6-piston brakes. The 6-pots can be added to an SS via option or afterward, but the eLSD and PTM cannot.

[97cavy22]

A bit late but I honestly have no interest in the C8 once I heard it did not offer a manual. That is literarlly my favorite part of a sports car. It's a shame, I've always aspired to own a Vette, almost did buy a used one instead of the Camaro. Now if I were to upgrade over the Camaro, I'd go 911 with a 7spd manual.

Saw way too many people comparing the 2SS price to that of the new Vette BASE price. I think a 1SS comparison is more realistic since the base Corvette is just that. I paid 33K for a 1SS so a base Corvette is almost double the price. I don't think too many people would cross shop because a high end buyer of an SS want's the extras, which the 60K Corvette won't have.

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by Wyzz Kydd

Do you guys ever get to step away from the computer and just drive? I just took a quick spin around the lake.

Every time I drive anywhere, even if it's only to the store and back, it's enjoyment and attention on levels much closer to what that quick spin around the lake was to you than you could ever know. That's every trip, not just the spur-of-the-moment "let's go for a drive" times.

When you've been interested in the technical side of cars and the related hobby for as long as I've been (since 1963 that I can date with 100% certainty), it really doesn't take that much to keep up with discussions such as this one that's nominally about the C8 and the Camaro.


Norm

[Memphis SS]

Originally Posted by 97cavy22

Saw way too many people comparing the 2SS price to that of the new Vette BASE price. I think a 1SS comparison is more realistic since the base Corvette is just that. I paid 33K for a 1SS so a base Corvette is almost double the price. I don't think too many people would cross shop because a high end buyer of an SS want's the extras, which the 60K Corvette won't have.

I disagree,

The base C8 Corvette comes with leather interior, dual climate control, removable roof, and DC A8 along with several other options that you would have to buy a 2SS with options to get.

Not even close to a 1SS model

[c4racer]

Originally Posted by 97cavy22

A bit late but I honestly have no interest in the C8 once I heard it did not offer a manual. That is literarlly my favorite part of a sports car. It's a shame, I've always aspired to own a Vette, almost did buy a used one instead of the Camaro. Now if I were to upgrade over the Camaro, I'd go 911 with a 7spd manual.

Saw way too many people comparing the 2SS price to that of the new Vette BASE price. I think a 1SS comparison is more realistic since the base Corvette is just that. I paid 33K for a 1SS so a base Corvette is almost double the price. I don't think too many people would cross shop because a high end buyer of an SS want's the extras, which the 60K Corvette won't have.

I have owned a 911 - very different car from a vette or Camaro for that matter. Not as balanced due to engine in the back - but it has lots of grip out of a corner. In many ways they are better daily driver sports cars than a Corvette.
But you could also take advantage of the inevitable drop in C7 valuation and get a 2016+ C7 with the 7 speed manual.

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by Memphis SS

I disagree,

The base C8 Corvette comes with leather interior, dual climate control, removable roof, and DC A8 along with several other options that you would have to buy a 2SS with options to get.

If you're really and truly buying for the performance, none of those things matter. If they do matter, it's because performance never was far and away the top priority.


Norm

[craigss50]

Originally Posted by 97cavy22

A bit late but I honestly have no interest in the C8 once I heard it did not offer a manual. That is literarlly my favorite part of a sports car. It's a shame, I've always aspired to own a Vette, almost did buy a used one instead of the Camaro. Now if I were to upgrade over the Camaro, I'd go 911 with a 7spd manual.

Saw way too many people comparing the 2SS price to that of the new Vette BASE price. I think a 1SS comparison is more realistic since the base Corvette is just that. I paid 33K for a 1SS so a base Corvette is almost double the price. I don't think too many people would cross shop because a high end buyer of an SS want's the extras, which the 60K Corvette won't have.

It's a good time to buy a C7 manual. Prices are way down and would be a lot less expensive than a 911.

[oldman]

Originally Posted by wnta1ss

You seem to misunderand. The post that I was answering was thinking that taking an SS with the A10 and adding 1LE suspension and tires might make it quicker around a track than the 1LE. His reasoning was that the ZL1/1LE now being available with the A10 is theoretically quicker around the track than the M6. My example for the SS was GM's testing where they installed the lowering kit and FE4 sway bars and the SS improved it's track time, then added 1LE tires/wheels and it improved yet more. However, the modded SS was still 2 sec a lap slower than the SS/1LE. The SS/1LE still had some things that the SS lacked: eLSD, PTM, and the 6-piston brakes. The 6-pots can be added to an SS via option or afterward, but the eLSD and PTM cannot.

I think I understook. I'm pointing out AGAIN that lowering springs are mainly for looks. While the 1LE and the ZL1 / 1LE springs are for performace.

This is a direct quote for the slammer springs:
"Our engineers have designed the Camaro Lowering Suspension Upgrade System components to lower vehicle ride height and help improve handling feel. The kit uses higher-rate front and rear coil springs along with specifically tuned struts and shocks to provide an integrated package to lower the vehicle ride height up to 20 mm while optimizing handling feel[."


So you get almost an 20mm or .787" down springs and you get "handling feel" whatever that means. NOWHERE does it say you get actual handling. Because we all know lowering springs don't make a car handle. Or do we?

For reference, the 1LE spring is .337" down and it built for handling, not just "handling feel". That is less than 1/2 the drop!!!!

What the SS lacked for SURE in the above test was a decent set of springs... and / or a decent set of springs and dampers.

So question for you, just theoretical of course. (don't know what PTM is but assume it is some sort of setting on the control for the eLSD and magride). 1LE vs SS with 1LE wheels and tires, and the ZL1 / 1LE springs, DSSV and bars, 6 pot calipers. Which is a better road race or track setup? IE is the eLSD, magride, and electrical gee wiz "better" than the DSSV?


here is what gm says about their DSSV kit:"Born on the track, designed for the ZL1 1LE, and tested to the extreme in Trans Am TA4 competition, the ZL1 1LE Spec Multimatic Lowering and Handling Suspension Upgrade System is for the serious on-track enthusiast looking for the fastest times around a track at the sacrifice of street comfort. Multimatic DSSV dampers, combined with front and rear coil springs, and a ZL1 1LE spec front sway bar, reduce ride height by up to 10mm and offer a 22% decrease in roll gradient, a 245% increase in front spring stiffness"


Here it clearly states the kit is to make your ride have the "fastest times around a track". Ride height is 10mm down (.394") (which is just a smiggen lower than the 1LE spring). Front springs are HECK a stiff. They are designed for handling not "handling feel".


So if GM's top of the dog road race package is 10mm down and they went to 245% STIFFER sping what does that tell you about the roll center of the car and what you get on a "handling feel" at 20mm down? That extra 10mm is a heck of role center loss and camber loss. But I'm sure the 20mm springs do "look" fast..

Here is a way to frame it, take two 1LEs, put the GM slammer springs on one, how much slower is it 1 second? maybe 2 seconds... right. slammer springs can't be compared to 1LE springs nor Zl1 1LE springs.

I don't have a dog in this hunt as I'm convinced the DSSV is the better damper and even though I have NOT gotten to the suspension yet (other than fooling around with lowering the rear for street fighting). I specifically did not order the MRC just because I had a feeling a DSSV package would come out.

[Gen6_1Le]

Originally Posted by oldman

I think I understook. I'm pointing out AGAIN that lowering springs are mainly for looks. While the 1LE and the ZL1 / 1LE springs are for performace.

This is a direct quote for the slammer springs:
"Our engineers have designed the Camaro Lowering Suspension Upgrade System components to lower vehicle ride height and help improve handling feel. The kit uses higher-rate front and rear coil springs along with specifically tuned struts and shocks to provide an integrated package to lower the vehicle ride height up to 20 mm while optimizing handling feel[."


So you get almost an 20mm or .787" down springs and you get "handling feel" whatever that means. NOWHERE does it say you get actual handling. Because we all know lowering springs don't make a car handle. Or do we?

For reference, the 1LE spring is .337" down and it built for handling, not just "handling feel". That is less than 1/2 the drop!!!!

What the SS lacked for SURE in the above test was a decent set of springs... and / or a decent set of springs and dampers.

So question for you, just theoretical of course. (don't know what PTM is but assume it is some sort of setting on the control for the eLSD and magride). 1LE vs SS with 1LE wheels and tires, and the ZL1 / 1LE springs, DSSV and bars, 6 pot calipers. Which is a better road race or track setup? IE is the eLSD, magride, and electrical gee wiz "better" than the DSSV?


here is what gm says about their DSSV kit:"Born on the track, designed for the ZL1 1LE, and tested to the extreme in Trans Am TA4 competition, the ZL1 1LE Spec Multimatic Lowering and Handling Suspension Upgrade System is for the serious on-track enthusiast looking for the fastest times around a track at the sacrifice of street comfort. Multimatic DSSV dampers, combined with front and rear coil springs, and a ZL1 1LE spec front sway bar, reduce ride height by up to 10mm and offer a 22% decrease in roll gradient, a 245% increase in front spring stiffness"


Here it clearly states the kit is to make your ride have the "fastest times around a track". Ride height is 10mm down (.394") (which is just a smiggen lower than the 1LE spring). Front springs are HECK a stiff. They are designed for handling not "handling feel".


So if GM's top of the dog road race package is 10mm down and they went to 245% STIFFER sping what does that tell you about the roll center of the car and what you get on a "handling feel" at 20mm down? That extra 10mm is a heck of role center loss and camber loss. But I'm sure the 20mm springs do "look" fast..

Here is a way to frame it, take two 1LEs, put the GM slammer springs on one, how much slower is it 1 second? maybe 2 seconds... right. slammer springs can't be compared to 1LE springs nor Zl1 1LE springs.

I don't have a dog in this hunt as I'm convinced the DSSV is the better damper and even though I have NOT gotten to the suspension yet (other than fooling around with lowering the rear for street fighting). I specifically did not order the MRC just because I had a feeling a DSSV package would come out.

I can tell the Camaro team did test a few setups and the production 1SS with the lowering kit ,handling kit with the SS 1Le tire did better times then 1SS on DSSV suspension kit . Neither was as quick around the track then the SS 1Le.

[oldman]

Originally Posted by Gen6_1Le

I can tell the Camaro team did test a few setups and the production 1SS with the lowering kit ,handling kit with the SS 1Le tire did better times then 1SS on DSSV suspension kit . Neither was as quick around the track then the SS 1Le.

Um so is that SS tires and the DSSV?

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by oldman

Um so is that SS tires and the DSSV?

That's the way most of us read it. It was answered in the 'Ask Al / Ask the Camaro Team' section a while back. That the "SS 1LE tire" was not specifically called out meant "new regular SS tires" in every other test in the 5-variation test sequence.

https://www.camaro6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=542333


Norm

[oldman]

GM says their DSSV pack is 1.8 faster vs the altitude pack at 1.6 seconds faster... In alls response the the DSSV is about 2 seconds faster and the altitude pack is 4 seconds faster... dunno. Does not seem correct to me.

IMO, the the 1LE springs on a decent damper will be better than 20mm down springs on factory performance dampers.

20mm is a whole lot of suspension travel to lose for looks.

If I get a C8, I'm not interested at all in the MRC,

[Memphis SS]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

If you're really and truly buying for the performance, none of those things matter. If they do matter, it's because performance never was far and away the top priority.


Norm

My reply was regarding his comment about the base C8 didn't compare to the 2SS in options (which it does) it didn't have anything to do with a discussion on performance...

If you want to go down that road, the C8 specs I've read so far it is going to out perform the ZL1 which is about the same price or more. It's all in what you want for the money.. I've owned Vettes for 20 years before switching over to Camaros. I like both.. If you ask me will it effect sales of the Camaro? I say yes for the guys that can afford a $50,000.00 Camaro SS or $65,000.00 ZL1, the guys buying the base or 2lt models, no. Most Camaros sold are non performance v6 models so it not really going to impact overall sales too bad but it will effect it on the higher end models more than anything else.

I've read were people were commenting on the C8 coming with all season tires and it wouldn't hold up against the ZL1... I recommend going back and reading the release information on the C8.. GM pulled over 1g with all season tires and felt it could out perform most to all performance cars in that price range and provide year round driving experience.

I'm a fan of both, owned both.. I can't wait to see it in person. It might be my next weekend car.