MOTORTREND Head 2 Head (more in-depth look from Inde) -ZL1 TAKES ON BOSS VIDEO :D

[Deki]

Originally Posted by YourBlindingBias

Carrying more speed is not related to power? lol

Through a corner, not really. You have to stay within your traction limits within the corner, so horsepower is irrelevant really, as both vehicle will have to brake to the point where they can maintain maximum speed through that turn. Chassis balance, suspension set up, and over all tire grip are the biggest factors when it comes to cornering speed.

Originally Posted by radz28

I'm curious as to why not? The Boss was supposed to be the best Mustang. ZL1 is the highest-performing CAMARO from the factory, so why not? I can see your point, and logically, I would prefer to see a GT500 up there, but I think more people probably wanted to see this match-up at least as much. The Boss, it seems to me, is nearly a factory racecar. ZL1 is not, yet it out-performs the Boss, not through acceleration (because it looks like the testing was conducted in a flying-start-format), so we can't really say there's an acceleration element that was favoring ZL1 all that much. Also - they commented how ZL1 only gained .4 of a second in terms of acceleration on the straight; the rest of the time, it was pulling away from the Boss (save for two corners).

I just happen to think this was a match-up more people wanted to see at this point. I believe more people want to see the '13 GT500, but we'll have to wait.



But it's not - so let it go.

It's a Mustang with adjustable shocks and a rear brace, it's not "nearly a race car". Why do you keep saying that? It has a full interior, air conditioning, cruise control, a stereo and other things found on a street car. If it was stripped and weighed less than a regular GT, like a Porsche GT3RS vs. a regular Carrera S, where it has no AC, no stereo, has non-adjustable lightweight seats, thin plexiglass windows, carbon fiber body pieces, and Sport Cup tires, I could see it being a "near race car". And it's the Mustang that's the most fun to drive, which doesn't mean it's the fastest. ZL1 should have been compared to the GT500. The result would have been the same I suspect.

[radz28]

Originally Posted by Trevorw24

In my mind the GT500 is the clear rival to the ZL1. I believe it was built to rival that. Then the BOSS came along. Ford built an in-between the GT and GT500. Camaro doesn't have that currently. The BOSS is a unique car because it's racecar ready with the Leguna package. Without the Leguna I think the BOSS is more of a matchup with the SS. 426 to 444. But no matchup is ever totally fair. Overall, I think the less HP makes it an unfair fight. I can't wait to see the ZL1 against the 2013 GT500. I hope Chevy fires back and adds HP for 2013/2014.

You do understand the Boss weighs something like 400-500 pounds less than ZL1?... In terms of acceleration, in cars in this weight range, about 100 pounds means about a .10 of a second (I think I'm saying that correctly). People keep trying to use horsepower as the problem with this match-up, however, this particular review clearly showed it wasn't. ZL1 was 2.54 seconds faster than the Boss. The reviewers said ZL1 out-accelerated the Boss only .4 of a second down the straight, and the Boss only made up for time around two corners of the track, which means the rest of the 2.5 seconds, ZL1 was pulling away. I don't think cornering speed has much to do with power at these speeds and with cars (I understand airplanes are a different animal since turning will bleed-off speed and you need power to overcome that force).

I completely hope GM has something in the works. Right away, we were told they are never done, so we might see something. The GT500 has improved a lot lately in terms of turning and they've never had a problem with making power. They might have too much with the '13, but only time will tell. The Boss might be an indicator of how far the factory can push a production car, but who knows? Maybe those adjustable shocks will be magic

[Ject]

nice..

[radz28]

Originally Posted by Deki

Through a corner, not really. You have to stay within your traction limits within the corner, so horsepower is irrelevant really, as both vehicle will have to brake to the point where they can maintain maximum speed through that turn. Chassis balance, suspension set up, and over all tire grip are the biggest factors when it comes to cornering speed.



It's a Mustang with adjustable shocks and a rear brace, it's not "nearly a race car". Why do you keep saying that? It has a full interior, air conditioning, cruise control, a stereo and other things found on a street car. If it was stripped and weighed less than a regular GT, like a Porsche GT3RS vs. a regular Carrera S, where it has no AC, no stereo, has non-adjustable lightweight seats, thin plexiglass windows, carbon fiber body pieces, and Sport Cup tires, I could see it being a "near race car". And it's the Mustang that's the most fun to drive, which doesn't mean it's the fastest. ZL1 should have been compared to the GT500. The result would have been the same I suspect.

I think you might be taking what I said too literally. It was lightened, and has a splitter you can't legally use on the street (at least on the LS, and that's what I read from Ford when it was introduced, so if it's changed, I take that example back) with a key that unlocks performance you can't use in California (which I'm not sure if that's changed either - last I looked, it hadn't). If you can't use parts on the street, I can't really call it a street car; that's just me. ZL1 doesn't have any parts that have to be removed in order to operate on the street, nor does it have to have another key to make it "technically" legal (I, personally, don't buy the CARB crap this caused, but it is what it is). What you get from the factory can be used everywhere, nearly all the time (tires - obviously). There also no back seat, lol (not that CAMAROs were terribly functional anyways). That's just me...

[ShnOmac]

Originally Posted by radz28

I completely hope GM has something in the works.

The question is will they even need to do anything right away....

[tooslow]

Agree. In a one lap race, with equal drivers, the ZL1 will always gain time on the Boss around a road course. I contend, however, that the ZL1 will lose the margin by some degree on each lap beyond the first. Unless someone can show me concrete data that shows the supercharged ZL1 is immune to the heat soak that is common for all supercharged cars that are ran in a competitive manner, I will maintain my opinion. It's not for me to prove that it will heat soak, it's up to someone else to show me it won't.

Quite honestly, unless they improve the braking on the Boss, no matter how much power it makes, its track times are going to suffer.

[Unobtainium]

Originally Posted by Deki

Through a corner, not really. You have to stay within your traction limits within the corner, so horsepower is irrelevant really, as both vehicle will have to brake to the point where they can maintain maximum speed through that turn. Chassis balance, suspension set up, and over all tire grip are the biggest factors when it comes to cornering speed.



It's a Mustang with adjustable shocks and a rear brace, it's not "nearly a race car". Why do you keep saying that? It has a full interior, air conditioning, cruise control, a stereo and other things found on a street car. If it was stripped and weighed less than a regular GT, like a Porsche GT3RS vs. a regular Carrera S, where it has no AC, no stereo, has non-adjustable lightweight seats, thin plexiglass windows, carbon fiber body pieces, and Sport Cup tires, I could see it being a "near race car". And it's the Mustang that's the most fun to drive, which doesn't mean it's the fastest. ZL1 should have been compared to the GT500. The result would have been the same I suspect.

Sort of. No back seats, very stiff adjustable suspension. Not a race car, but certainly compromises for the track.
Ford didn't do the other stuff because its not their thing. It would price them out of the target demographic.
The test vs the SS with the boss was rather lopsided too, but that doesn't mean it didn't sell magazines. There was no ZL1, so the SS had to step in.
I agree still that a 2012 match-up makes good sense.

[the rich dude]

AWESOME video!! I can tell you right now that the extra 70 HP the Mustang "might" make over the Camaro won't make up for the 3 second deficit on the track The GT500 will weigh more than the Laguna Seca because it will have a full interior plus the extra 100 pounds for supercharger and etc.... Good luck Ford

Even MT's pro driver said that you take away the Camaro's 130 HP advantage and it would still beat the Mustang by 2 seconds!! So the GT500 doesn't have a chance. Good night

[Unobtainium]

Originally Posted by ShnOmac

The question is will they even need to do anything right away....

This I think is going to be interesting. Ford really upped the power for a reason.
I think they didn't put the time in on the suspension, so they wanted to make sure they had the power game covered. The motor is powerful, they claim the most powerful production v8.
I hope it's close for the sake of rivalry. I imagine if Ford pulls their head out of their ass and puts some real tires on this beast, it will be 11's out of the box, and less than embarrassed on most tracks with decent straights.
I predict a VIR time of 2:52 flat.

[KKreme15]

Originally Posted by Unobtainium

Sort of. No back seats, very stiff adjustable suspension. Not a race car, but certainly compromises for the track.
Ford didn't do the other stuff because its not their thing. It would price them out of the target demographic.
The test vs the SS with the boss was rather lopsided too, but that doesn't mean it didn't sell magazines. There was no ZL1, so the SS had to step in.
I agree still that a 2012 match-up makes good sense.

What would price them out of the market? Removing the stereo and air conditioning?

[Unobtainium]

Originally Posted by KKreme15

What would price them out of the market? Removing the stereo and air conditioning?

Lightweight seats, carbon fiber body pieces...

[the rich dude]

Originally Posted by Unobtainium

This I think is going to be interesting. Ford really upped the power for a reason.
I think they didn't put the time in on the suspension, so they wanted to make sure they had the power game covered. The motor is powerful, they claim the most powerful production v8.
I hope it's close for the sake of rivalry. I imagine if Ford pulls their head out of their ass and puts some real tires on this beast, it will be 11's out of the box, and less than embarrassed on most tracks with decent straights.
I predict a VIR time of 2:52 flat.

Not a chance. I'll take that bet and say the 2013 GT 500 won't do better than a 2:54

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by YourBlindingBias

Carrying more speed is not related to power? lol

Let's think things through before we laugh at them.

Car #1 screams down the straight as the start flag is dropped reaching a top speed of 140 MPH before braking down to 70 MPH for the first turn and exits turn #1 at a speed of 75 MPH. From 75 MPH car #1 hits 90 MPH before braking hard into turn two. Car #1 exits turn two at 50 MPH...

Car #2 screams down the straight as the start flag is dropped reaching a top speed of 135 MPH before braking down to 75 MPH for the first turn and exits turn #1 at a speed of 85 MPH. From 85 MPH car #1 hits 90 MPH before braking hard into turn two. Car #1 exits turn two at 55 MPH...

Road Course Rules

Rule #1 There are more turns than there are straights
Rule #2 Suspension Tires and Brakes win more races that RWHP

Now we move from theoretical to on track reality.

SCCA Club Racing 2006 National Championship Runoffs the Pontiac Solstice placed first place in Showroom Stock B (SSB).

SCCA Club Racing 2007 National Championship Runoffs the Pontiac Solstice GXP placed 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place in Touring 2 (T2) and the Pontiac Solstice placed first place in Showroom Stock B (SSB) even after being penalized 200 lbs between the 2006 and 2007 seasons.

SCCA Club Racing 2008 National Championship the Pontiac Solstice GXP placed 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place in Touring 2 (T2)

In these years the Solstice was beating the BMW M3, Caddy CTS-V, Ford Mustang Cobra, GT and Shelby GT, Z28 Camaros, Mits EVO, Firebirds and WRX STi. On the tighter courses the T2 Solstice ran lap times that were competitive with the T1 Ferraris, ZO6 Vettes and Vipers all of which were faster in the straights.

The only people laughing were behind the wheel of a Solstice.

[Rock36]

Damn it Radz28 couldn't you have just added this to one of the other Boss 302 LS vs. ZL1 threads!?!?