Al O. believes ZL1 still faster

[radz28]

Taken from another thread:

http://www.autoblog.com/2012/01/20/c...-shelby-gt500/

"It would seem on paper that the 2013 Ford Shelby Mustang GT500 should easily slay the heavier and less powerful 2012 Chevy Camaro ZL1. The former weighs 3,850 pounds and brings 650 horsepower and 600 pound-feet of torque to the table, the latter carries 4,120 pounds and 580 hp/556 lb-ft.

Not so fast, says Camaro Chief Engineer Al Oppenheiser (above). Speaking with Autoblog at an Arizona drive event for the Camaro ZL1, Oppenheiser told us, "We've done simulations. We predict that the ZL1 will be quicker to 60 than the [2013] GT500... We ran the Nürburgring and released a time. Ford took the GT500, too, and never released a time. I guess you can draw your own conclusions."

When asked point-blank if he thought the ZL1 would be quicker around the 'Ring, Oppenheiser replied, "No question."

Them sounds like fighting words, especially in the face of data that suggests the opposite is true. Remember, this is the same guy who told Mustang fans "you're welcome" for encouraging Ford to throw everything it can at the Camaro.

But we're not counting Oppenheiser among the crazy just yet. All that power generated by the GT500's supercharged 5.8-liter V8 will be for naught if it can't reach the ground without turning into tire vapor, and let's not forget that the Blue Oval's bomber is still dragging around a solid rear axle, compared to the all-independent suspension sporting third-generation Magnetic Ride shocks on the ZL1. And who's doing the driving can always be the great equalizer when talking 'Ring times.

We're still inclined to put our chips on the blue square, but nothing's certain until these two titans of Detroit meet head-to-head.


Sounds interesting...

[armysig]

I'm sure Ford is keeping it's mouth shut until it can get it's hands on a ZL-1 so they can do some bench testing of their own.

Anyways, I'll still go with the ZL-1, it's not always about power.

[bpmurr]

That's an extremely bold claim to make based off of simulations. You can put money on the 2013 GT500 being faster in the straight line. The advantage the ZL1 has is in handling. The ZL1 will feel more composed and amateur drivers will most likely put up better lap times because of that. In the hands of an experienced driver the GT500 will probably put up better numbers since they can handle the more raw nature of the handling.

The bottom line is we all can play video games. Let's just put production units up next to each other with a pro driver and settle it. The ZL1 is a great car even if it comes in a hair behind or ahead of the GT500.

[radz28]

Originally Posted by armysig

I'm sure Ford is keeping it's mouth shut until it can get it's hands on a ZL-1 so they can do some bench testing of their own.

Anyways, I'll still go with the ZL-1, it's not always about power.

You know - I'll fight to the death for ZL1, and I think it's stands an excellent chance on a shorter-type track, but the 'Ring? That's a long ways, and there are a couple good stretches there where one can really keep the foot to the wood. I've always wondered what a pro' driver could do with ZL1, and if there was really any significant different with Mr. Link and the rest of the crew who've done an outstanding job.

[2ndCamaro79]

radz28 sir I believe you are guilty of this.:troll:

There is no sense trying to learn them son. They are Ford boys and they bought the Mustang II Nuff said.

[Shurenuff]

Very interesting claim by Al. Confidence is good, but can make you look silly if you don't back up your claims. We'll see in due time. I have complete confidence that the ZL1 will be an awesome car regardless of numbers.

Originally Posted by radz28

You know - I'll fight to the death for ZL1, and I think it's stands an excellent chance on a shorter-type track, but the 'Ring? That's a long ways, and there are a couple good stretches there where one can really keep the foot to the wood. I've always wondered what a pro' driver could do with ZL1, and if there was really any significant different with Mr. Link and the rest of the crew who've done an outstanding job.

I'd love to see some kind of broadcasted grudge match between the manufacturers where they pick their best pro driver to go head to head on a track like the ring (or a domestic track) to see which car runs the fasted hot lap on a completely stock car. It would be fantastically entertaining.

It would be like the modern version of win on Sunday, sell on Monday. Come to think about it, this is pretty much the basis behind the ring challenge that Chevy presented Ford. I'd love for that to happen.

[radz28]

Originally Posted by bpmurr

That's an extremely bold claim to make based off of simulations. You can put money on the 2013 GT500 being faster in the straight line. The advantage the ZL1 has is in handling. The ZL1 will feel more composed but and armature drivers will most likely put up better lap times because of that. In the hands of an experienced driver the GT500 will probably put up better numbers since they can handle the more raw nature of the handling.

The bottom line is we all can play video games Al. Let's just put production units up next to each other with a pro driver and settle it. The ZL1 is a great car even if it comes in a hair behind or ahead of the GT500.

The GT500 has a couple big things going against it, so far as I understand to this point.

Obviously - it's not hurting in the power department. Going down the back straight, it will be flying in super-cruise.

However - I still think the chassis is where the differences could be made up for by ZL1. Active suspension and real downforce are what make it stand out to me so far. I know there are aero' improvements, but I haven't heard specifics, and GM has shown there's actual, REAL, downforce imparted to ZL1. Brakes are good on ZL1 and I'm sure they'll be matched pretty evenly there. They'll be on the same tires, but ZL1 will be on wider rubber. I'm not sure what fronts the EPS on the Mustangs have been, though I think I remember reviews to be relatively positive, so that's a was.

I come back to the chassis though. Watching videos of that car going around the 'Ring seemed to show, to me, it's not all that smooth. Tuning a car for a couple tracks is one thing. Having a car that adapts the way the ZL1 does, I think, is the key. Adjustable doesn't mean anything, especially if you only have two settings (I am not trying to make a blanket statement that adjustable shocks are bad, because you can, obviously tune them for the particular track - I understand the GT500s are going to be electronic, which leads me to believe there are going to be specific settings), or even three or four. Are you supposed to run through them, while driving the 13-miles (I honestly forget now...) so you're in the right setting?

The downforce is something that I lump into the chassis, too. We've seen clips of the simulations and actual wind tunnel testing, and GM has admitted this is the first car in their history that has the desirable traits for pushing into the tarmac better to go faster.

It will be interesting. I'd like to see the absolute best drivers drive these cars balls-to-the-wall and see what happens. GM's made some bold claims. GM's starting to come through on them. They haven't mis-stepped so far. Maybe we haven't given them enough credit yet. It's certainly makes for good benchracing.

[Deki]

I think it's a stupid PR marketing move to throw these things out like that, especially since Ford has not finished the development of the 2013 yet. What will he do if the GT500 beats the ZL1 in every performance category? He's going to be throwing out excuses like nobodies business. I love the ZL1, and I can't wait to go check one out in person, but I've never been a fan of this type of marketing, as it narrows your customer base.

[radz28]

Originally Posted by Deki

I think it's a stupid PR marketing move to throw these things out like that, especially since Ford has not finished the development of the 2013 yet. What will he do if the GT500 beats the ZL1 in every performance category? He's going to be throwing out excuses like nobodies business. I love the ZL1, and I can't wait to go check one out in person, but I've never been a fan of this type of marketing, as it narrows your customer base.

Good post. I won't say I totally agree with everything, but those are absolutely fair points.

However - I think it speaks about those who are making our cars. They are PASSIONATE. I also think that Ford was a little out of line when they stole the thunder. That's what's irked me more. I hate bickering, and seeing it in politics, this time of year, especially. This isn't nearly as bad, but it gets close to getting too close, lol.

Let's just say that Team CAMARO has to eat some words. They won't take it laying down. They'll be working no a MOAB to drop on the competition. We benefit in the end, but second place is first loser...

[actireman]

Originally Posted by Deki

I think it's a stupid PR marketing move to throw these things out like that, especially since Ford has not finished the development of the 2013 yet. What will he do if the GT500 beats the ZL1 in every performance category? He's going to be throwing out excuses like nobodies business. I love the ZL1, and I can't wait to go check one out in person, but I've never been a fan of this type of marketing, as it narrows your customer base.

I actually think it's good, for GM and for Ford. It obviosly gets people excited. I don't think Al is stupid at all for his comments. He believes what he says and it is probably correct. GM went out to kick Fords butt and now Ford will be out to kick GM's. I race with my son almost every weekend around the nation and I can tell you one thing "chassis and driver will win more races than an engine ever will around a track". When we first started out, it was all about HP, after four years it's all about my driver and setup. So I'm sure Al is right in line with his comments.

[AUS10BMX]

I still don't think anyone should be worried about the "650 horsepower" number. The ZL1 has been perfectly built for its power and weight. In the end its going to be how each car handles, and at the moment I'm sure we all know who that is. The ZL1 has a lot of advanced stuff packed into it that I haven't heard of other competitors having in this division of vehicle. Yes, the ZL1 is ready and will be on the streets before the new GT500, and Ford has also had a year now to see this car shape up to make adjustments on their own. It's always a chance they could come out on top, but the games are just beginning all over again, and its not gonna quit any time soon. If people want a ZL1 now, I say go for it, its gonna be one hell of a car. Or, wait it out and get the MOAB! I doubt it will be in 2013 though, I think it would be crazy to turn around that fast and release another ZL1 upgraded performance wise. Everyone who's getting now would be pretty bummed if they knew that would happen. If they waited this long, I'm sure they'd rather just wait longer to get the ultimate Camaro... I think were gonna be just fine though, GM is obviously very confident, as they should be!

[zero]

Originally Posted by radz28

Good post. I won't say I totally agree with everything, but those are absolutely fair points.

However - I think it speaks about those who are making our cars. They are PASSIONATE. I also think that Ford was a little out of line when they stole the thunder. That's what's irked me more. I hate bickering, and seeing it in politics, this time of year, especially. This isn't nearly as bad, but it gets close to getting too close, lol.

Let's just say that Team CAMARO has to eat some words. They won't take it laying down. They'll be working no a MOAB to drop on the competition. We benefit in the end, but second place is first loser...

I agree with you Rad they are passionate however Ford stole some of the thunder and played it well, they only released HP and top speed. GM went into damage control right away and IMO made them and the ZL1 look kinda bad.

[KLR ZL1]

Originally Posted by Shurenuff

Very interesting claim by Al. Confidence is good, but can make you look silly if you don't back up your claims. We'll see in due time. I have complete confidence that the ZL1 will be an awesome car regardless of numbers.






I'd love to see some kind of broadcasted grudge match between the manufacturers where they pick their best pro driver to go head to head on a track like the ring (or a domestic track) to see which car runs the fasted hot lap on a completely stock car. It would be fantastically entertaining.

It would be like the modern version of win on Sunday, sell on Monday. Come to think about it, this is pretty much the basis behind the ring challenge that Chevy presented Ford. I'd love for that to happen.

How about they run base model to base model and see who really has the overall best car for the money.

[thespymaster]

I wrote it earlier "God Bless Chevy & the Camaro Team " for bringing the ZL1 to market and a second round of beating the BLUE OVAL is about to happen soon as the ZL1's hit the street and shout out to Becky Doyle for getting me on the Rodgers Chevrolet allocation list