[NG329]

Originally Posted by Checkmate1

I have about 5 track events to date using OEM pads, my rotors still look great.

I am an advanced driver as well having done my stints this year at Summit Point and VIR at ambient temps ranging from 65' - 94'.

Always check your pads for minimum thickness before track events.

Can you also post pictures of the Hankook Ventus V12's after your track day? Curious about the wear on those tires considering you pushed hard.

I had half pad material before the day started. It was open track format and I logged 250 track miles. It wasn't your typical track event where you barely log 100 miles.

Here's a pic of the rear after 250 track miles (equivalent to 2 track days) and 700 street miles. The front is a little worse and looks like it'll be good for another 1 or maybe 2 regular track days.

[cdrptrks]

Originally Posted by NG329

For reference, at Thunderbolt in my experience and from what I have seen.

> 1:40 = Slow and needs improvement
1:37-1:39 = Getting there
1:33-1:36 = Adequately fast and in the top 5% - about as quick as you can go on street compounds with any type of consistency
1:30-1:32 = Very fast - usually track prepped, tuned, and race compound
< 1:29 = Fukken Fast!!!!!

Having never driven Thunderbolt, I am just going to throw out there that the best track times thread has two 1:30 lap times by Camaros with the 455hp LT1 engine on 220 treadwear SC3 tires (one that was stock besides track alignment & track pads) so your Camaro with the 650hp LT4 engine should definitely be capable of 1:29s or better on the same tires as you get more track experience, or a few seconds faster on the stock 100 treadwear SC3Rs. Granted at least one of those times was likely set in cooler weather conditions so add a few seconds to account for hot summer conditions. It takes many years of events to gradually increase your pace closer and closer to the car's limits. At my home track I improved my PB by over 7 seconds after 3 years in my SS 1LE. I imagine the progression is even more difficult in your more powerful car especially with the insane grip levels that the SC3R tires are capable of...keep at it!

EDIT: Forgot to mention there are inexpensive brake pad thickness measurement tools on Amazon or in store (https://www.harborfreight.com/brake-...set-58799.html) that you can use with the wheels on (wait until they cool down after track use or wear thick gloves to avoid burning your hands). If you buy one made of plastic, it will start to melt within a few seconds of touching a hot pad/rotor!

Note: I have found it is best to occasionally remove the wheels to check the thickness of the inner pads and the middle of each pad which can't be done accurately with the wheels on the car. You can note any uneven wear and check the thinnest pad more often/closely to prevent rotor damage.

I have thrown new pads onto both a front and rear rotor where I ran out of pad material on a small part of a single pad during a track session and the new pads smoothed minor grooves away and I had no issues afterwards but I caught them sooner than you did and started checking more often/closely in the future.

[NG329]

Originally Posted by cdrptrks

Having never driven Thunderbolt, I am just going to throw out there that the best track times thread has two 1:30 lap times by Camaros with the 455hp LT1 engine on 220 treadwear SC3 tires (one that was stock besides track alignment & track pads) so your Camaro with the 650hp LT4 engine should definitely be capable of 1:29s or better on the same tires as you get more track experience, or a few seconds faster on the stock 100 treadwear SC3Rs. Granted at least one of those times was likely set in cooler weather conditions so add a few seconds to account for hot summer conditions. It takes many years of events to gradually increase your pace closer and closer to the car's limits. At my home track I improved my PB by over 7 seconds after 3 years in my SS 1LE. I imagine the progression is even more difficult in your more powerful car especially with the insane grip levels that the SC3R tires are capable of...keep at it!

EDIT: Forgot to mention there are inexpensive brake pad thickness measurement tools on Amazon or in store (https://www.harborfreight.com/brake-...set-58799.html) that you can use with the wheels on (wait until they cool down after track use or wear thick gloves to avoid burning your hands). If you buy one made of plastic, it will start to melt within a few seconds of touching a hot pad/rotor!

Note: I have found it is best to occasionally remove the wheels to check the thickness of the inner pads and the middle of each pad which can't be done accurately with the wheels on the car. You can note any uneven wear and check the thinnest pad more often/closely to prevent rotor damage.

I have thrown new pads onto both a front and rear rotor where I ran out of pad material on a small part of a single pad during a track session and the new pads smoothed minor grooves away and I had no issues afterwards but I caught them sooner than you did and started checking more often/closely in the future.

Yeah there's a guy out there with an SS-1LE running 1:30s. he's very very fast. I think he goes by the name "Yanbags". Amrish is a member of this forum and he runs 1:30s in his ZL1-1LE which is stock-ish like mine. They are both very fast. It's definitely possible but it's definitely not the norm. The majority of guys out here at Thunderbolt are 1:37ish and slower. If you're in the 1:32-1:35 range you are definitely one of the fastest guys on track on any given day. I think a 1:35 on Hankooks is quite impressive to be honest. And I think there was another 1.5 seconds in it if I had fresh brake pads. A 1:34 is definitely possible or maybe even faster if you're just a nut behind the wheel. LOL

I'd love to see 1:30.xx laps but I need to wrap my head around two sections of the track that require you to be flat out. It's gonna take time. At Thunderbolt and Lightning the ZL1-1LE and the SS-1LE are pretty much dead even.

*edit: Technically, the SS-1LE and the ZL1-1LE are "Track Prepped" cars -- minus a roll cage. So they are definitely capable off the truck to run those fast times.

[NG329]

Update: All things considered, I think that for the money I would actually buy these again. I'm seeing them as low as $1,000 for the set to my door.

Economically Priced = check
Tolerate Heat and Cool temps = Check
Durable = Check
Within 1-2 seconds of R compound times = Check
Communicative = Check
Consistent Handling Characteristics = Check

The only negatives with these tires are:

1 - Sidewalls are a little softer so the car feels like it pitches a little while mid corner.
2 - The front is a little "oversteery". I don't particularly like that. Some guys love it.
3 - For the first few hundred miles of running in, the tires actually felt unstable to me in hard/fast corners. I absolutely hated them when I first put them on.


The tires require smooth inputs. They WILL NOT tolerate "herky jerky". You will learn a ton about being smooth. You really learn how to drive. I'm actually a fan of them now.

[Cjw]

If these tires are within 1-2 seconds of an r compound, you are not driving an r compound to its full potential. I’m sorry, there’s no way. If the post above states low 1.30 on Goodyears and you’re running a mid 1.35.. maybe you have a hankook deal and trying to hype them up for sponsorship, but I can’t see it being as fast as you say

[NG329]

Originally Posted by Cjw

If these tires are within 1-2 seconds of an r compound, you are not driving an r compound to its full potential. I’m sorry, there’s no way. If the post above states low 1.30 on Goodyears and you’re running a mid 1.35.. maybe you have a hankook deal and trying to hype them up for sponsorship, but I can’t see it being as fast as you say

I'm only 2 seconds slower on it than the Supercar 3Rs. You're right, I'm definitely not using the R compound to it's "Full" potential, but who really does that isn't a Pro?" Sure that comes down to my ability or lack thereof but it just goes to show that I can get away with using less tire and still be in the top 10% of the quickest on track for a given event which is my only point.

I have no affiliation with Hankook. LOL I ran a 1:35 with zero brakes. I'm pretty sure I could drop another 1-2 seconds next time out with fresh pads and rotors ....targeting a high 1:33 into a low 1:34 on these. On 3Rs I may be able to crack 1:31s and maintain the 2 second gap between tires.

[cdrptrks]

Originally Posted by Cjw

If these tires are within 1-2 seconds of an r compound, you are not driving an r compound to its full potential. I’m sorry, there’s no way.

This is the same point I was making.

Originally Posted by NG329

I'm only 2 seconds slower on it than the Supercar 3Rs. You're right, I'm definitely not using the R compound to it's "Full" potential, but who really does that isn't a Pro?"

It makes sense to buy tires that last longer than the stock SC3Rs while you are building up your skills. Hankook RS4 tires are probably the best bet in terms of value vs. grip vs. longevity for your situation. Your experience level may be skewing your perception of how close the two tires from your original post are to each other in terms of their capabilities.

For reference, I am not a pro but I have a set of SC3R tires on ZLE wheels that I have used a handful of times for only 2 sessions during weekend events on my SS 1LE at several different tracks and I personally would expect to see a lap time improvement of about 1.5 seconds switching from SC3 to SC3R for a 1:30 lap time on my SS 1LE even though I am not fully utilizing the available grip of the SC3Rs everywhere and even though my camber and stock brake pads are not optimal for use with the 3Rs.

[NG329]

Originally Posted by cdrptrks

Your experience level may be skewing your perception of how close the two tires from your original post are to each other in terms of their capabilities.

Fair play and quite possibly true. On the other hand, I've been told by experienced drivers that although outright lap speeds can vary by 1-2 seconds between the two types of tires, a High performance Summer Tire like the Hankook can do the fast lap times but only for a lap or three (even matching the pace of an R compound in some cases) tops before they settle down to about 75% of an R compound's pace.

I'm not sure what to believe at this point but I'll get there one day.

Trust me,.,, it's not lost on me that the 3R is a way better tire. In fact the 3R clocked race worthy laps down to the cords on my last set. However, the PS4S and the Hankook's that I have also ran might actually be a better tire to "Learn" on and build some skills while also saving a few bucks in the process ($$$ saved in the case of the Hankook anyways).

A few years ago before I got into car track days I remember this one guy in a C5 race car killing everyone at Summit Point. I asked him over lunch what his advice would be to someone who was just starting out. I'll never forget that he said, "Most guys buy too much car" in the beginning. Then I admitted that I would probably be one of those guys too. To which he replied: " If you do buy a 'Lot of Car,' make sure you don't 'Over Tire' the car." Now I see what he is talking about finally.

[NG329]

After 175 mile track day today at NJMP Lightning. Best time I could manage was a 1:14.8 today. Only 2 tenths slower than my Supercar 3R time. I'm heading back later on this month with either Supercar 3R or Slicks.

Here's the tire wear after 2 track days and about 1,500 street miles.











4k Video to come in at the Hankook Work thread. haha

[SFV1LE]

I have a lot of track experience with Hankook TDs, but not V12... Hankook TD are great R comp track tires but don't come in any ZL1 sizes. RS-4 next in line... a good new non R-comp autocross and occasional track tire (RS-3 replacement) but biggest size so far 305/30/19. V12 Evo is not designed for track but sounds like it works ok for a few laps, I'm betting track use is heat cycling them out fast.

In my experience with ZLE tracking 3R, A7, PSC2, and Pirelli DH, the GY 3R is the best DOT R comp in the world right now in terms of both grip and durability--they're great until they cord. I know an amazing driver who did 1:27 at Laguna on 3Rs in a stock McLaren 765. Check where that sits among Laguna lap times, says it all in my opinion.

The McLaren with same driver on Hankook Ventus V12 would never break 1:34--1:34 is blistering fast and what Pobst did in ZLE. So that's a minimum 7 second difference on a relatively short track. V12 to 3R for a great driver is not a 2-3 second difference, it's a lot more.

[NG329]

Originally Posted by SFV1LE

I have a lot of track experience with Hankook TDs, but not V12... Hankook TD are great R comp track tires but don't come in any ZL1 sizes. RS-4 next in line... a good new non R-comp autocross and occasional track tire (RS-3 replacement) but biggest size so far 305/30/19. V12 Evo is not designed for track but sounds like it works ok for a few laps, I'm betting track use is heat cycling them out fast.

In my experience with ZLE tracking 3R, A7, PSC2, and Pirelli DH, the GY 3R is the best DOT R comp in the world right now in terms of both grip and durability--they're great until they cord. I know an amazing driver who did 1:27 at Laguna on 3Rs in a stock McLaren 765. Check where that sits among Laguna lap times, says it all in my opinion.

The McLaren with same driver on Hankook Ventus V12 would never break 1:34--1:34 is blistering fast and what Pobst did in ZLE. So that's a minimum 7 second difference on a relatively short track. V12 to 3R for a great driver is not a 2-3 second difference, it's a lot more.

Honestly, I agree with everything you mentioned except for the last paragraph. We really don't know what time the McLaren driver would make on the Hankooks. I believe that the gap between R compounds and street tires is not as wide as we are led to believe. I will say that I think that outright lap times will always go to the R compound but only by a second or two. 7 seconds is a stretch.

[khcoaching]

For me, the difference between the standard 3S and the 3R is about 1.5 seconds when I tested the difference. Granted, different day and the 3S weather was perfect, but the 3R weather was also pretty good.

Post #104

https://www.camaro6.com/forums/showt...=594295&page=8

Ken

[SFV1LE]

Originally Posted by NG329

Honestly, I agree with everything you mentioned except for the last paragraph. We really don't know what time the McLaren driver would make on the Hankooks. I believe that the gap between R compounds and street tires is not as wide as we are led to believe. I will say that I think that outright lap times will always go to the R compound but only by a second or two. 7 seconds is a stretch.

Not sure how many years of track experience you have or how many different tires you've tried and cars you've tracked. Here is a key thing you may not have experienced or seen yet as a driver or passenger: as you drive faster lap times moving from good driver to very good, to great or amazing driver (not me), the difference in performance between street and R-compound tires is NOT linear.

When a 765 LT on 3Rs is running a crazy fast 1:30 or below pace at Laguna Seca, the tires get super hot and MORE sticky with the tread melting and becoming gooey and glue-like--assuming alignment and pressures are good and driver isn't overdriving or drifting too much.

When a 765 LT on Hankook V12 tries running anything below lets say a 1:34 at Laguna the tires get super hot, they become LESS sticky at an INCREASING rate, instead of MORE sticky like 3R, and then V12s eventually start to fall apart--crumble.

But before this happens, the 765 driver who is capable of this pace would have exited the track to avoid spinning out or crashing. The V12 rubber can't handle that kind of heat and force, like an F-16 pilot trying to pull a 9G turn in a Gulfstream jet :-)

In the zone before this where good to very good drivers live, 1:36+, this kind of tire failure doesn't happen and the difference in lap times between GY 3R and Hankook V12 is less pronounced.

IMO standard GY 3 is probably the best track day choice for a true street tire--they seem to have some of that state of the art GY track tire technology they developed for 3R and can handle a lot of heat and cycles.

[NG329]

Originally Posted by SFV1LE

Not sure how many years of track experience you have or how many different tires you've tried and cars you've tracked. Here is a key thing you may not have experienced or seen yet as a driver or passenger: as you drive faster lap times moving from good driver to very good, to great or amazing driver (not me), the difference in performance between street and R-compound tires is NOT linear.

When a 765 LT on 3Rs is running a crazy fast 1:30 or below pace at Laguna Seca, the tires get super hot and MORE sticky with the tread melting and becoming gooey and glue-like--assuming alignment and pressures are good and driver isn't overdriving or drifting too much.

When a 765 LT on Hankook V12 tries running anything below lets say a 1:34 at Laguna the tires get super hot, they become LESS sticky at an INCREASING rate, instead of MORE sticky like 3R, and then V12s eventually start to fall apart--crumble.

But before this happens, the 765 driver who is capable of this pace would have exited the track to avoid spinning out or crashing. The V12 rubber can't handle that kind of heat and force, like an F-16 pilot trying to pull a 9G turn in a Gulfstream jet :-)

In the zone before this where good to very good drivers live, 1:36+, this kind of tire failure doesn't happen and the difference in lap times between GY 3R and Hankook V12 is less pronounced.

IMO standard GY 3 is probably the best track day choice for a true street tire--they seem to have some of that state of the art GY track tire technology they developed for 3R and can handle a lot of heat and cycles.

I honestly don't have the skillset to refute anything you've said so with humility I will just need to take your work for it. At my current level, I'm only a few tenths off my R compound pace which just shows me that I have quite a bit of things to work on. At the very least, I am consistent though.

I agree about the GY 3 being a superb tire. There's a guy who I've bumped into at the track, in fact he's in my YouTube videos in the SS 1LE, I can't match his outright fastest lap no matter what tire I run. We run the same time at NJMP Thunderbolt but at NJMP Lightning he's bested me by 1.8 seconds and he's on the GY 3 while I did my times on the GY 3R. Maybe I will switch to that for my next tire since I know that the tire is capable of running the times while at the same time provides good durability.

The Hankook's look good as well and I am honestly learning a lot about being smooth. But even others who've followed me have noticed that I am on the limits of the tire. I feel like with a better tire I can work on lines more and with a street tire you work on smoothness.