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Old 07-11-2020, 11:52 AM   #15
Wipeyourself
 
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Fuel does match air flow but stock for stock you still will be limited by your requested torque value. The ECU's will adjust whatever parameters to achieve this. Even if changing the TB increases cylinder fill, the engine will purposely run inefficiently to achieve its targets.

The inlet on your intake is still the stock size, so useing that thin single angle 80-72mm adapter instead of a radius will act more like a restrictor plate then a velocity stack. When I get asked to gasket match stock sbc heads( bevel the edge) I roll my eyes. Making a redundant cross section usually reduces velocity and flow. The pinch point is rarely at the larger cross sectional areas within the induction system. "A" is not the problem. Useing some complex engine math it may be determined that 6 cylinders of this size and this VE at x rpm could have some restriction at the TB. You can change to a bigger one but you will still be limited by the next restriction like the intake inlet which is still the same size as stock.

There are gains to be had but you have to apply the "full package" TB, CAI, intake inlet needs to be modified and a tune.

Soler makes a very high quality product. I have nothing negative to imply there way but to just bolt on the TB and do nothing else may not net the results they imply. Dont dismiss the product as snake oil it just has to be applied properly.

If a guy buys a performance 350 sbc with a big cam. I cant tell you how many guys will complain the engine is a bag of shit. Then I find out they have a stock TC and a 2.56 gear ratio which dont complement the engine properly. Sometimes when you change a part you will have to change 3 more to make it work.
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Old 07-15-2020, 10:26 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Wipeyourself View Post
Fuel does match air flow but stock for stock you still will be limited by your requested torque value. The ECU's will adjust whatever parameters to achieve this. Even if changing the TB increases cylinder fill, the engine will purposely run inefficiently to achieve its targets.
Yes, but the target is a Cap (maximum) not a nominal value. If you add enough air to hit that Max Torque Limit, it will likely reduce spark advance, then you need to tune. The goal for those staying stock is to run as close as possible to stock tune max torque limit, for those we recommend our modified LGX TB, the kit discussed in this thread is very likely to need tuning.

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The inlet on your intake is still the stock size, so useing that thin single angle 80-72mm adapter instead of a radius will act more like a restrictor plate then a velocity stack.
Remember, the manifold snout has the area of a full circle, the TB has the area of a full circle minus the projected shaft and blade area. Such that:

72 mm Stock TB effective WOT area = 3350 mm^2 (not a true full circle)
72 mm Stock Manifold area = 4070 mm^2 (true 72 mm circle area)
76 mm Ported Manifold area = 4540 mm^2 (true 76 mm circle area)
84 mm Soler TB effective WOT area = 4550 mm^2 (not a true full circle)

So with the stock manifold, you gain 720 mm^2.
With a ported manifold you gain 1200 mm^2.

There will be nothing worse than a step down (discontinuity) from 80mm TB to 72mm manifold, the straight taper in the Adapter Plate definitely eases the transition, especially when compared to other Adapter plates that are not tapered. We are 100% sure that adding a radius in such a small distance will cause flow separation.

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You can change to a bigger one but you will still be limited by the next restriction like the intake inlet which is still the same size as stock.
It depends, the devil is in the details. Here's is where the difference between effective area and the true area explained above comes into play.

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There are gains to be had but you have to apply the "full package" TB, CAI, intake inlet needs to be modified and a tune.
Agree, this is the best. TB only adds capacity, use it like this to its full extent.

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Originally Posted by Wipeyourself View Post
Soler makes a very high quality product. I have nothing negative to imply there way but to just bolt on the TB and do nothing else may not net the results they imply. Dont dismiss the product as snake oil it just has to be applied properly.
Thank you, and yes, apply it properly for best results.

Notice we do not claim any power increase, we simply claim our TB's will give much more air at low throttle for a better response. At WOT we can only claim larger air handling capacity, the power will come from applying it correctly as you said.

Thanks,
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Old 07-17-2020, 12:02 AM   #17
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This turned into a great discussion. Thank you for writing Mike. I wish you could do a thicker adapter but I know you can't to keep ease of install.

I only have one question. I was wondering if you could explain "our throttle tb's will give much more air at low throttle for a better response" in a little more detail. I'm curious what "better response" means. What measure did you use to come to this conclusion? I'm interested in how you "measured" better response. I'm not questioning your statement just interested in the details.

Thank you for your time Mike.
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Old 07-17-2020, 02:22 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Wipeyourself View Post
This turned into a great discussion. Thank you for writing Mike. I wish you could do a thicker adapter but I know you can't to keep ease of install.

I only have one question. I was wondering if you could explain "our throttle tb's will give much more air at low throttle for a better response" in a little more detail. I'm curious what "better response" means. What measure did you use to come to this conclusion? I'm interested in how you "measured" better response. I'm not questioning your statement just interested in the details.

Thank you for your time Mike.
No problem, we measure that as the rate of change of airflow between the start and end of a throttle move, that is units of volume/time/angle, that slope is proportional to "responsiveness", here is an example:

It can also be expressed as the time needed for the maniold to go from an initial to a final set pressure. I'm sure there are other ways to quantify it.

The inertia of all the moving parts and the vehicle itself should be in the denominator for the full picture, but that is something we cannot change and has been considered a constant.
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Old 07-17-2020, 06:45 PM   #19
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Thank you Mike. The info provided will only help the community.
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Old 07-25-2020, 04:33 PM   #20
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Solar 84ml TB & JacFab ported intake mani

Got the 84ml TB in from Solar Performance! Thanks Mike! Decided to also get the ported intake manifold from JacFab to pair with it. Figured I'll just wait and do one install. Expect I'll need to have Will do a retune after the install. Hoping they compliment each other for a few more HP.
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Old 07-25-2020, 04:52 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by mvp88 View Post
Got the 84ml TB in from Solar Performance! Thanks Mike! Decided to also get the ported intake manifold from JacFab to pair with it. Figured I'll just wait and do one install. Expect I'll need to have Will do a retune after the install. Hoping they compliment each other for a few more HP.
Are you gonna get a dyno tune? If so, let us know the results. There's a guy on YouTube with a 6th gen V6 Camaro that did a ported TB and manifold, and gained 18 rwhp
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Old 07-26-2020, 08:29 AM   #22
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Are you gonna get a dyno tune? If so, let us know the results. There's a guy on YouTube with a 6th gen V6 Camaro that did a ported TB and manifold, and gained 18 rwhp



Unlikely I'll dyno it. Just not wanting to spend $$ that could go to future mods. Once I am FBO I will dyno to see where the car is. Then wait till I can do the Overkill stage 2 setup to dyno again. I saw that video as well so I figure 20 HP is realistic. plus he didn't have it tuned after to get the most HP out of it if i remember right. I'm gonna have it re-tuned after install.
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