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Old 10-19-2015, 11:58 AM   #1
MEDISIN

 
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MotorTrend Dyno Battle: GT350, GT350R, and Z/28

http://beta.motortrend.com/features/...d-camaro-z28/#



Shelby GT350: 467 hp/374 lb-ft
Camaro Z/28: 469 hp/438 lb-ft
Shelby GT350R: 471 hp/376 lb-ft
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Old 10-19-2015, 12:19 PM   #2
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Hmm, the LS7 is pretty impressive when compared to the Ford 5.2 FPC motor. The remaining question I suppose is can GM make a cheaper LS7? I have to assume the LS7 costs more than the GT350 motor? Or does the cost of the DOHC arrangement offset the cost of the titanium connecting rods? Either way it is a real shame that GM doesn't appear to be coming out with a replacement for the LS7.
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Old 10-19-2015, 12:27 PM   #3
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LS7 is especially impressive when you remember it's a 10 year old engine..
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Old 10-19-2015, 12:29 PM   #4
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The GT350 engines are about revs though, not peak power...
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Old 10-19-2015, 12:34 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rayhawk View Post
Hmm, the LS7 is pretty impressive when compared to the Ford 5.2 FPC motor. The remaining question I suppose is can GM make a cheaper LS7? I have to assume the LS7 costs more than the GT350 motor? Or does the cost of the DOHC arrangement offset the cost of the titanium connecting rods? Either way it is a real shame that GM doesn't appear to be coming out with a replacement for the LS7.
It's no so much a question of cost, as the LS7 is "only" about $11,000 (Summit sells the LS7 crate for $13,100 vs about $8,000 for the LS3) but is instead a question about emissions and MPG requirements.

The LS7 in the Z/28 was below 20 MPG in both city and highway, vs 14/21 for the 5.2 Voodoo.

N/A high powered motors are becoming increasingly difficult to clear emissions and meet reasonable economy requirements. Ford stated that the 5.2 was "more difficult than normal" to get compliant to various requirements, both internal and external from Ford, than normal. Keep in mind this is the same team that built the 5.8 Trinity at 662 HP for the 13/14 GT500.

People want high powered N/A motors from OEM, but that simply isn't going to possible much longer. Sure you can throw better heads, a cam, LT's and an open element intake on a LT1 and make 550-575 HP easily..but it would NEVER pass OEM requirements for anything, to say nothing of Federal regulations and CARB.

The day is coming, within the next 5 years I'm willing to bet, where V8 cars will only be halo models.

SS: TT 3.6 V6

GT: 3.5 EcoBoost TTV6

R/T: 3.0 TTV6 from the Alfa Guilia or a TT version of the current Pentastar motor.

If I had to place a safe wager..the SS, GT and R/T trims of all cars will be TT V6's and not V8's in any way by 2020.

Get em while you can folks, daylights' wastin'.
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Old 10-19-2015, 12:39 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by SUMMIT WHITE SS View Post
The GT350 engines are about revs though, not peak power...
I have an r/c engine that revs to 35,000 rpm, why didn't they use one of those?

Look at it a different way, the 5.2 motor has to rev that high to compete with the LS7 in power output due to its smaller displacement. It doesn't mean it is a bad engine, quite the opposite, but without the extended rpm range it wouldn't be close to the LS7.
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Old 10-19-2015, 04:33 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rayhawk View Post
I have an r/c engine that revs to 35,000 rpm, why didn't they use one of those?

Look at it a different way, the 5.2 motor has to rev that high to compete with the LS7 in power output due to its smaller displacement. It doesn't mean it is a bad engine, quite the opposite, but without the extended rpm range it wouldn't be close to the LS7.
Again, revs are what that engine is all about. Less shifts, holding gears longer, peak power, power where you want it on a road course. There are reasons cars more so built for road courses rev higher, just look at F1 cars...

Comparing a pushrod engine to a 4 valve, DOHC, FPC engine is total apples to oranges if you ask me. But if given a choice on a road course, I would rather the Voodoo then the LS7.
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Old 10-19-2015, 04:53 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by SpeedIsLife View Post
It's no so much a question of cost, as the LS7 is "only" about $11,000 (Summit sells the LS7 crate for $13,100 vs about $8,000 for the LS3) but is instead a question about emissions and MPG requirements.

The LS7 in the Z/28 was below 20 MPG in both city and highway, vs 14/21 for the 5.2 Voodoo.

N/A high powered motors are becoming increasingly difficult to clear emissions and meet reasonable economy requirements. Ford stated that the 5.2 was "more difficult than normal" to get compliant to various requirements, both internal and external from Ford, than normal. Keep in mind this is the same team that built the 5.8 Trinity at 662 HP for the 13/14 GT500.

People want high powered N/A motors from OEM, but that simply isn't going to possible much longer. Sure you can throw better heads, a cam, LT's and an open element intake on a LT1 and make 550-575 HP easily..but it would NEVER pass OEM requirements for anything, to say nothing of Federal regulations and CARB.

The day is coming, within the next 5 years I'm willing to bet, where V8 cars will only be halo models.

SS: TT 3.6 V6

GT: 3.5 EcoBoost TTV6

R/T: 3.0 TTV6 from the Alfa Guilia or a TT version of the current Pentastar motor.

If I had to place a safe wager..the SS, GT and R/T trims of all cars will be TT V6's and not V8's in any way by 2020.

Get em while you can folks, daylights' wastin'.
5 years is a little pessimistic, 10 I can aee
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Old 10-19-2015, 05:00 PM   #9
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I hate to say it but if you have ever driven a car with high revs you will also realize that you will have to shift more often. The low end of the rev range won't be able to pull and you will end up down shifting once maybe twice to catch up.
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Old 10-19-2015, 05:19 PM   #10
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I see the Z/28 only losing out due to weight. The all new GT350 and R might of had the Z/28 in it's sights to beat when in development. But they should have chosen the future Z/28. Their all new limited cars are about to become obsolete very quickly.

While no one seems to have actual data from the 0-60 and 1/4 mile on the Ford cars, it looks as if the bare bones SS it nipping at their feet already.

Would a SC LT1 be in the cards? It seems to put down power fairly nicely to the wheels and even with a new shoe swap is bound to give better numbers. Is it crazy to think GM could make a super charged LT1?
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Old 10-19-2015, 05:26 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Sledgehammer70 View Post
I see the Z/28 only losing out due to weight. The all new GT350 and R might of had the Z/28 in it's sights to beat when in development. But they should have chosen the future Z/28...?
Agree....if you could somehow pull out 150+ pounds out of the Z/28 to give it 6th gen like weight, I think that alone would be enough to even the score or maybe even put the Z/28 back on top of the GT350R

That said, the GT350R is an amazing machine, and come on guys....when you think about it...at this level they are trying to do whatever they can just to take off another 10 of a second here or there during a lap....the level of performance is insane.

But I truly believe that 6th gen can topple the GT350R without question, and compete at or beat it in price.
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Old 10-19-2015, 05:37 PM   #12
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Agree....if you could somehow pull out 150+ pounds out of the Z/28 to give it 6th gen like weight, I think that alone would be enough to even the score or maybe even put the Z/28 back on top of the GT350R

That said, the GT350R is an amazing machine, and come on guys....when you think about it...at this level they are trying to do whatever they can just to take off another 10 of a second here or there during a lap....the level of performance is insane.

But I truly believe that 6th gen can topple the GT350R without question, and compete at or beat it in price.
The killer for the Z/28 was the brakes. Remove those for a standard Brembo (Spy photos seem to point to this for the potential Z cars) option and you're looking at a very comparable price point for a car that looks to be all sorts of better.

GM set the bar with the 2014 Z/28. Glad to see Ford chase it, just wish they aimed their sights higher. I guess they relied on the old Caddy performance numbers a bit to much to foresee what the Gen6 would do.
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Old 10-19-2015, 05:48 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sledgehammer70 View Post
I see the Z/28 only losing out due to weight. The all new GT350 and R might of had the Z/28 in it's sights to beat when in development. But they should have chosen the future Z/28. Their all new limited cars are about to become obsolete very quickly.

While no one seems to have actual data from the 0-60 and 1/4 mile on the Ford cars, it looks as if the bare bones SS it nipping at their feet already.

Would a SC LT1 be in the cards? It seems to put down power fairly nicely to the wheels and even with a new shoe swap is bound to give better numbers. Is it crazy to think GM could make a super charged LT1?
You mean something like the LT4???
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Old 10-19-2015, 06:09 PM   #14
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You mean something like the LT4???
Is the LT4 a supercharged LT1? I am not current on what the base motors are.
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