[GunMetalGrey]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

They do have 18s. Thats what Provoste has been running for a while. I believe he runs 285 Pirelli scrubs.
Obviously plenty of tire given his VERY fast pace.
2:04 at the Glen with otherwise bone stock SS 1le is eye popping!

https://support.apexraceparts.com/hc...bile_site=true

And if they fit over the brakes on an SS 1LE that means they will definitely clear the brakes on a ZL1?

I thought the brakes on the ZL1 were the same as the SS 1LE but then I recently read something that they are not... A little confused about that

UPDATE

Apex website only lists 19" wheels as clearing the ZL1's front brakes... I'm sending them an email to confirm if any 18" wheels do

[mt.nichols]

Originally Posted by GunMetalGrey

And if they fit over the brakes on an SS 1LE that means they will definitely clear the brakes on a ZL1?

I thought the brakes on the ZL1 were the same as the SS 1LE but then I recently read something that they are not... A little confused about that

UPDATE

Apex website only lists 19" wheels as clearing the ZL1's front brakes... I'm sending them an email to confirm if any 18" wheels do

I tried the flow formed/rotary forged route with Forgestar. They couldn't do factory wheel widths in 18" fitment, apparently there is some webbing on the back of the wheel that eats up backspacing.

Interested to see what Apex has to say.

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by GunMetalGrey

Curious, what do you consider to be significant time?

Off the top of my head - when you're fully comfortable driving at 9/10ths with Stabilitrak running at reduced sensitivity (Competitive mode?). Or turned off completely. This would still be on street tires; I'm not sure what you'd want to do with Stabilitrak once you do start running slicks.

I'm being as patient as I can, but remember we are different people likely with different goals.

And different kinds/varieties of driving experience going in. It's likely that significantly different lengths of that experience exist as well.

On the subject of slicks being bad to learn on, I was thinking about that more and I'm not sure I see why they would be, although of course I could very well be missing something.

This is probably another one of those "you don't know what you don't know" things.

To date, all of your driving experience has been on street tires (of varying performance potential). But their behaviors are generally more similar to each other than to any racing slick.

I'm thinking about breakaway characteristics here, where the transition through a little slip and/or slip angles into full-blown sliding is much more abrupt with a slick. And you'll be more apt to over-drive them (running too hot into a corner because of a feeling that there's always going to be enough grip comes to mind). There's a financial consequence of flatspotting a slick that probably isn't insignificant.

Here is what I was thinking, please let me know your thoughts on this;
Every tire, not matter what the tire, has a maximum potential, so to say that a better tire covers up mistakes seems to assume that the person using the better tire doesn't care about reaching the full potential of that better tire, but rather only cares about how fast he is now going with the better tires compared to the old worse tires or compared to other cars on the track.

There is serious risk of falling into the trap that you've just described. Sure, your lap times would improve, but that would not be happening because you were getting that much better as a driver.

It also seems to assume he doesn't care about making any actual driving skill improvements.

Improving one's skill set is easier said than done, I'm afraid. And even when you do make it happen, it's not exactly permanent unless you can continuously work at "staying current". People do get a bit rusty over time/seasonal absences from the track.

My point is they are not mutually exclusive and both should be able to be done at the same time I would think.

At some point, yes. That's why I suggested advanced run group running as an indicator. Below that, you're busy enough unlearning what years/decades of street driving has been quietly teaching you and trying to replace that with what track level driving requires.


It's a funny thing about patience . . . perhaps you need it the most when you've got the most downstream time to benefit from it, and are most willing to be patient when you don't.


Norm

[GunMetalGrey]

I appreciate your feedback Norm, this makes me wonder how much I am improving my ability as a driver with street tires vs just maximizing my lap time with these tires and using there full potential.

I have a long way to go until I feel like I'll be able to drive without stabilitrack on, I stayed in Sport mode 1 on my first dry track day and don't know when I'll feel comfortable going to Sport 2 and losing ESC, I doubt that will happen for quite some time.

Do you think that only tracking once a month is even enough to improve as a driver and build on?

Also would you recommend me from the SC3 to the SC3R before I go to slicks?

[TrackClub]

Well GMG, i am glad you are validating both our response channels here, and as you can see they match almost verbatim That will hopefully reassure you that neither Norm, nor i make this $hit up just to pi$$ you off lol!

In addition to what i had stated in the other thread, i will expand on what Norm has mentioned above, re getting "rusty":

When learning any new skill, whatever it may be, the more repetition, feedback and re-enforcement, the better.
This means one will learn faster and more in 6 consecutive days, vs 6 days spread out in 6 months. Because of a cumulative effect. Therefore, driving 2 consecutive days makes much difference vs single days.
Especially in early stages of development, but not only.

My own progression took off when i started attending 2 and sometimes 3 day events, logging 20+ days per season. Additionally, i have completely eliminated an off season "rust" when i started spending regular time on iRacing sim (as its car control dynamics match real life very well indeed).

Now here is the rub: a pro driver, when discussing iRacing benefits as a direct parallel to real racing noted this: "unless you invest at least 40hrs on a sim, then you dont have an opinion". Harsh words, but true.

I would draw a parallel to his comment about the sim and apply it to RL track experience: unless you log about 20 days (which on average is about 40hrs worth), than whatever opinion you may have, discount it for now, as it will most certainly evolve.

Having said that, many folks drive 5 or 6 days per season and have bags of fun! But it helps to have realistic expectations. Kinda like playing golf: you will never shoot a par if you whack balls 5 or 6 times per year. But it doesnt mean you shouldn't have fun!

Lastly, based on my own experience and having spoken to many folks, one thing is for certain: the more driving the better the skill and the faster the pace. Driving 40 days per year vs 30 makes a big difference. So does 20 vs 10. Etc.

It is too bad, that there isnt another Camaro on the island to demostrate to you just what is possible. To give you a comparison. This would be tremendously helpful to refocus you on the right stuff and squash any doubts regarding unsuitability for this track etc.
But, ya never know...one could show up and surprise the heck outta ya

[GunMetalGrey]

I think your responses have always been valid, though we may disagree to exactly what degree, I generally agree with the overall message you are sending, however I think more than anything this is making me think about what it takes to improve driver skill and perhaps going to the track more often... Like I said I'm questioning how much my skill is improving no matter what tires I am using.

In that sense I don't think this will dissuade me from going to used slicks next year (we will see), but it is encouraging me to go to track more often and focus on improving my skill.

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by GunMetalGrey

I think your responses have always been valid, though we may disagree to exactly what degree, I generally agree with the overall message you are sending, however I think more than anything this is making me think about what it takes to improve driver skill and perhaps going to the track more often... Like I said I'm questioning how much my skill is improving no matter what tires I am using.

In that sense I don't think this will dissuade me from going to used slicks next year (we will see), but it is encouraging me to go to track more often and focus on improving my skill.

Good stuff! Have fun and play safe. Cheers!

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by GunMetalGrey

I appreciate your feedback Norm, this makes me wonder how much I am improving my ability as a driver with street tires vs just maximizing my lap time with these tires and using there full potential.

As mentioned in the other thread, I think mean traffic-free lap times and a standard deviation analysis of those times are of more value to your development at this point (the messy math part of that is easily done in Excel). Being able to brag about x:xx.x lap time isn't the same thing.

I have a long way to go until I feel like I'll be able to drive without stabilitrack on, I stayed in Sport mode 1 on my first dry track day and don't know when I'll feel comfortable going to Sport 2 and losing ESC, I doubt that will happen for quite some time.

It's good that you recognize that much. Now you have to turn that into the patience that will be involved. And maybe some of that patience thing will stick.

I'm not the right person to advise you any more explicitly on when you might be ready to dial the Stabilitrak back. Remember, my '08 does not even have a stability control system, and a couple of impromptu experiences with Subaru's VDC have been, well, let's call it frustrating and leave it at that.

How long do you think it will be before you feel ready to (cautiously) go out on a rainy session?

Do you think that only tracking once a month is even enough to improve as a driver and build on?

Not an easy question to answer, so I'm going to say "it depends". I suspect that the better your understanding of the physics involved, the better your chances. But you'll still have to relate that "book knowledge" to what you're feeling while you're out there.

The way you've been approaching your street driving could either be helping or hurting, and I'm not talking in the context of high speeds here. For example, do you visualize - and within the restrictions of lane width/pavement/guardrail placement - follow "the line" along a highway on-ramp? Or do you basically cruise down the center of the lane or get way over to the inside as soon as you possibly can (out of concern that you'll need as much pavement on the outside later)?

What I'm looking for here is how natural it is or isn't for you to follow a racing line through a turn and whether or not you're likely to recognize in real time when you didn't get it quite right. I.e., turned in too early, ran a foot wide at the apex, etc., and could make that comment to an instructor. It can be easy to fall back on what the vast majority of your driving history has been teaching you, whether it's the right thing for track driving or the wrong thing. I'm not an instructor, but I have watched the wrong things being done from right seat in at least one lead-follow parade lap session. Cringe-worthy.

The above assumes that you're not continually changing the car beyond simple adjustments. Things like inflation pressures and shock/strut/sta-bar settings (you probably don't have the latter three). Because when you change the car, you have to re-adapt, and that comes at some cost in your development.


There was one stretch of time where I did 5 days on three different tracks in one month's time, four of those days being 2-day events. No way would 5 days spread out over 5, or even 3 months, have been as productive.

Also would you recommend me from the SC3 to the SC3R before I go to slicks?

Yes. Make the smaller step. The R was developed with the ZL1 in mind, and it's not like the R's are going to last forever (or even a whole season) anyway. Just so you know, I've consistently datalogged beyond 1.2g laterally on MPSS tires . . . even after putting way more than a few heat cycles and some winter storage on them.


Norm

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

How long do you think it will be before you feel ready to (cautiously) go out on a rainy session?

On thinking a little more about this, I'd really like to suggest staying on street tires all the way up to the point where you can gently dance the car's attitude back and forth between more understeer and less (or between light understeer and neutral) on a long wet sweeper - and be clearly feeling the differences the whole time. Seems like you'd get a good assessment of your skill at throttle modulation and awareness of what the car is trying to tell you. But it's quite a high bar to be taking a crack at just yet, well beyond most novices and probably a fair number of intermediates as well.


Norm

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

On thinking a little more about this, I'd really like to suggest staying on street tires all the way up to the point where you can gently dance the car's attitude back and forth between more understeer and less (or between light understeer and neutral) on a long wet sweeper - and be clearly feeling the differences the whole time. Seems like you'd get a good assessment of your skill at throttle modulation and awareness of what the car is trying to tell you. But it's quite a high bar to be taking a crack at just yet, well beyond most novices and probably a fair number of intermediates as well.


Norm

Good thoughts Norm. The issue is that GM Stabilitrak is very good! As in: very effective and feeling non intrusive at the same time. But thats a two edged sword. When i tested my car in Sport 1 mode, i could feel the Stabilitrak kick in only because the car felt tighter than usual. It felt like it was on rails but would not respond to throttle steering at all. So, as much as it offered superb stability, it also numbed down my ability to feel where the limit was (as it prevented bigger yaw angles). It was effective, in an android way, but it reduced my ability to influence the car's behavior as a driver to a large extent.

I still use it when giving rides to public at special events and such, as it offers an extra security blanket - zero question. But from a driver's pov it is a completely different experience imo.
It still allows very fast laps, but it does reduce driver's involvement in managing car's attitude and is capable of masking fairly big errors .

So, big pros, but also big cons. All depends on what one is after and what one's aspirations are.

Cheers!

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

When i tested my car in Sport 1 mode, i could feel the Stabilitrak kick in only because the car felt tighter than usual. It felt like it was on rails but would not respond to throttle steering at all. So, as much as it offered superb stability, it also numbed down my ability to feel where the limit was (as it prevented bigger yaw angles). It was effective, in an android way, but it reduced my ability to influence the car's behavior as a driver to a large extent.

Thanks, Bill.

Not from driving the Mustang, but I know the sensation you're describing when a stability control system intervenes. Non-threatening/benign in terms of directional stability and frustrating at the same time. Not necessarily in equal measure.


Norm

[Laststandard]

Originally Posted by GunMetalGrey

And if they fit over the brakes on an SS 1LE that means they will definitely clear the brakes on a ZL1?

I thought the brakes on the ZL1 were the same as the SS 1LE but then I recently read something that they are not... A little confused about that

UPDATE

Apex website only lists 19" wheels as clearing the ZL1's front brakes... I'm sending them an email to confirm if any 18" wheels do

SS 1LE front brakes are about .5" smaller than the ZL1

[RUQWIKR]

Originally Posted by Laststandard

SS 1LE front brakes are about .5" smaller than the ZL1

J6H (ZL1): 390x36 F, 365x28 R (mm)
J6M (SS 1LE): 370x34 F, 340x26 R (mm)

A bit over 3/4" larger front OD / ~1" larger rear OD and a bit wider on both...

[GunMetalGrey]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

As mentioned in the other thread, I think mean traffic-free lap times and a standard deviation analysis of those times are of more value to your development at this point (the messy math part of that is easily done in Excel). Being able to brag about x:xx.x lap time isn't the same thing.

So you mean consistency?

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

It's good that you recognize that much. Now you have to turn that into the patience that will be involved. And maybe some of that patience thing will stick.

yeah maybe haha

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

I'm not the right person to advise you any more explicitly on when you might be ready to dial the Stabilitrak back. Remember, my '08 does not even have a stability control system, and a couple of impromptu experiences with Subaru's VDC have been, well, let's call it frustrating and leave it at that.

How long do you think it will be before you feel ready to (cautiously) go out on a rainy session?

My first track day in May was all rain... I don't think I drove very cautiously, but that's subjective

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

Not an easy question to answer, so I'm going to say "it depends". I suspect that the better your understanding of the physics involved, the better your chances. But you'll still have to relate that "book knowledge" to what you're feeling while you're out there.

The way you've been approaching your street driving could either be helping

What I'm looking for here is how natural it is or isn't for you to follow a racing line through a turn and whether or not you're likely to recognize in real time when you didn't get it quite right. I.e., turned in too early, ran a foot wide at the apex, etc., and could make that comment to an instructor. It can be easy to fall back on what the vast majority of your driving history has been teaching you, whether it's the right thing for track driving or the wrong thing. I'm not an instructor, but I have watched the wrong things being done from right seat in at least one lead-follow parade lap session. Cringe-worthy.

If I had to assess I'd think that driving the lines of the track doesn't seem that hard but knowing the limits of my car in terms of grip and how close to sliding out I am in the middle of a corner is a another story. I'd also say consistency would be a big issue as well. That doesn't mean I'm right after watching my PDR video footage, that's what I noticed.