[Number 3]

Originally Posted by Petrol Head

There’s a few people on this forum who support the EV garbage that will have some sort of snarky rebuttal to this. But I’ve been saying exactly what this article says from day one.

They don’t listen.

I’m not sure what your point is though. Of course it’s inconvenient. And as the article states 70% of those that went back to an ICE did not have access to level 2 fas5 charging.

And what everyone misses is that people at the car companies actually do understand it’s why so much time and money is being spent on improving this. The Taycan with the right charger can get 80% charge in just 15 minutes. And they are working to improve that.

Everything about EVs is constantly being improved while the good old ICE is pretty much topped out. Any tiny improvements to an ICE are exponential cost increases.

So yes, everyone on the EV side of this discussion understands charging is inconvenient if you don’t have a home with right outlet in the garage. But if you commute is garage to garage it’s not a deal at all.

[Petrol Head]

Originally Posted by Number 3

I’m not sure what your point is though. Of course it’s inconvenient. And as the article states 70% of those that went back to an ICE did not have access to level 2 fas5 charging.

And what everyone misses is that people at the car companies actually do understand it’s why so much time and money is being spent on improving this. The Taycan with the right charger can get 80% charge in just 15 minutes. And they are working to improve that.

Everything about EVs is constantly being improved while the good old ICE is pretty much topped out. Any tiny improvements to an ICE are exponential cost increases.

So yes, everyone on the EV side of this discussion understands charging is inconvenient if you don’t have a home with right outlet in the garage. But if you commute is garage to garage it’s not a deal at all.

Everything you mention is like, 10% of the population.

Those of us in the real world, who have real jobs and drive 30 miles to work and back everyday park in a regular parking lot and have houses not built by the Jetsons.

Just for one second of your life can you quit acting like everyone is a rich snob and think in terms of reality?

Most Americans are not in the market for anything over $30k and are not ever going to invest what’s required to go electric. Rich people and techno-geeks. Like 10% of the country.

Ask the guy who drives $5,000 used cars if he can ever be able to go electric. Ask his manager to spend money to install electrical chargers at his job’s parking lot.

You’ll get laughed out of his office.

[arpad_m]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Everything about EVs is constantly being improved while the good old ICE is pretty much topped out. Any tiny improvements to an ICE are exponential cost increases.

There is some truth to this, but IMO those exponential cost increases apply mostly in terms of mandatory fuel efficiency requirements that are artificially inflated year on year. This is what requires jacking up complexity, and thus cost, to insane levels.

Just as a different example, ask Dodge how their power bumps have been coming, I'd say pretty nicely, without any "exponential" investment (and no, whoever bought them or buys them next is not relevant here).

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by Petrol Head

Most houses in America were built before 1999. You can’t reasonably expect people to pay an electrician $2,000 to install the required electrical system on top of whatever the special charger costs to simply keep your car fueled up.

And no matter how the super charger network works, unless you can get one one every corner in America available to anyone, 24/7/365 without having to plan ahead and be able to charge your car to 300 miles in 5 minutes, it ain’t gonna work for the masses.

These companies who want to go all in on EV aren’t thinking.

They actually are.

GM is paying for that install for one.

And you need to look at the BILLIONS all of the OEMs are investing in the network of chargers.

Everyone understands this problem and no company in going blindly into this.

Yes, it's currently inconvenient but a lot of people and money are going to make it more convenient.

It will be very hard to beat oil. Oil is currently king for cheap energy. It transports easily from the ground to the pump to the tank. That's the next goal for EVs.

Remember 10 years ago it was range anxiety not charging. Range has been fixed. The next one up is charging. Will it be "fixed"? It may never get the same time as a gas stop but will solid state batteries improve further? They should. But that is the next gen.

There is no next gen ICE. Fueling it, operating it and the performance are fairly close to optimized. So to meet future FE and emissions requirements will cost OEMs tons of money and with diminishing returns. That's why EVs are gaining traction.

And the wild card remains FC.

[Petrol Head]

Originally Posted by Number 3

It may never get the same time as a gas stop

People barely have time for a gas stop in their lives now. You think they’re gonna just blindly accept more time?

[Puddin]

Originally Posted by Petrol Head

Everything you mention is like, 10% of the population.

Those of us in the real world, who have real jobs and drive 30 miles to work and back everyday park in a regular parking lot and have houses not built by the Jetsons.

Just for one second of your life can you quit acting like everyone is a rich snob and think in terms of reality?

Most Americans are not in the market for anything over $30k and are not ever going to invest what’s required to go electric. Rich people and techno-geeks. Like 10% of the country.

Ask the guy who drives $5,000 used cars if he can ever be able to go electric. Ask his manager to spend money to install electrical chargers at his job’s parking lot.

You’ll get laughed out of his office.

They may not want to invest in the required supplies for going electric but they are definitely shopping for cars above 30k. https://www.marketwatch.com/story/th...ar-11613683827

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by arpad_m

There is some truth to this, but IMO those exponential cost increases apply mostly in terms of mandatory fuel efficiency requirements that are artificially inflated year on year. This is what requires jacking up complexity, and thus cost, to insane levels.

Just as a different example, ask Dodge how their power bumps have been coming, I'd say pretty nicely, without any "exponential" investment (and no, whoever bought them or buys them next is not relevant here).

Their power bumps are old school. They clearly aren't trying to meet FE as they've made Tesla a profitable company by buying credits.

So getting HP is topped out. It's just displacement or boost or both. But that much HP isn't cheap either simply from a durability POV.

The OEMs are spending a lot on incremental FE gains at this point. Reference the indexing cam shaft on the new 2.0 and 2.7 liter turbos from GM.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by Petrol Head

Everything you mention is like, 10% of the population.

Those of us in the real world, who have real jobs and drive 30 miles to work and back everyday park in a regular parking lot and have houses not built by the Jetsons.

Just for one second of your life can you quit acting like everyone is a rich snob and think in terms of reality?

Most Americans are not in the market for anything over $30k and are not ever going to invest what’s required to go electric. Rich people and techno-geeks. Like 10% of the country.

Ask the guy who drives $5,000 used cars if he can ever be able to go electric. Ask his manager to spend money to install electrical chargers at his job’s parking lot.

You’ll get laughed out of his office.

I'm sorry but I'm just not sure where your anger is coming from. Where do you get I am acting like everyone is a rich snob.

First of all we are on a website that celebrates a car that pretty much no one spent less than $30,000 on.

Now if you want to change the discussion from the technology and it's implementation to socio economics that don't fit the Camaro demographic that's fine tool.

I just find it amusing that people state "here is a problem with EVs" and then you post a counter that refutes the claim and then it's "well here is another problem with EVs".

We all get it. You don't like EVs. That's absolutely fine. You aren't alone by a long shot. But no value in being angry in a technology discussion.

The person driving a $5,000 car every day is also not buying a new non EV either. At some point EVs will be solid used cars that fit that market. I can find a Nissan Leaf right now for well under 10k now. And don't come back with the batteries won't last. They will as well an an ICE in a $5,000 car.

And GM has said Ultium gets them to cost parity with an ICE but we'll see if that actually pans out.

So my apologies for somehow continuing to offend you in a technology discussion. Wouldn't have thought that was possible.

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by Petrol Head

Most houses in America were built before 1999. You can’t reasonably expect people to pay an electrician $2,000 to install the required electrical system on top of whatever the special charger costs to simply keep your car fueled up.

And no matter how the super charger network works, unless you can get one one every corner in America available to anyone, 24/7/365 without having to plan ahead and be able to charge your car to 300 miles in 5 minutes, it ain’t gonna work for the masses.

These companies who want to go all in on EV aren’t thinking.

Unless your electrical panel is maxed out it should cost $200 to add a 50 amp breaker and NEMA-50 outlet. You will save that in that month in gas in the first month of ownership. The charger comes included with the car. This will be a transition over time, but most folks that drive 30-50 miles per day will EVs are a non-issue.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by raptor5244

I think they are getting better looking.

They are getting better, but a lot of those examples you posted are quite expensive haha.

Originally Posted by raptor5244

Unless your electrical panel is maxed out it should cost $200 to add a 50 amp breaker and NEMA-50 outlet. You will save that in that month in gas in the first month of ownership. The charger comes included with the car. This will be a transition over time, but most folks that drive 30-50 miles per day will EVs are a non-issue.

True for people that own houses it might not be a big deal, but what about the people that live in condos, apartments or high rises that don't have dedicated parking spots? What about the people that live in the outskirts of a city that have houses but have street parking and sometimes have to park 3 blocks away from home?

[90503]

I think at some point this fast-charging on the road will become woefully inadequate, even with a push to get it up asap...

Lines at Costco and other places for gas will pale in comparison to the lines for electricity.

Right now charging is pretty much getting a free ride. Soon, though, when most have to wait in line for a charge, on top of the actual charge time, the party will be over.


The EV Fast Charge station of the not too distant future:

Premium Charge Plug-in....No waiting...... Price....Don't ask...

Mid Grade Charge Plug-in ...30-60 minutes wait for a plug....Price....A lot...

Regular Grade Plug-in....1 hour plus wait for a plug....Price....Lower than the others...

Just sayin' the wait times even out in the boonies for a plug will become a royal pain.

The demand will produce higher costs for convenience...Just a thought.

[Bhobbs]

I can’t wait until car charging is stopped between 4-10 PM in California during the summer. Oh, it’s a little windy today? Sorry, power is off because of fire danger. You have more than one electric car? We have to bump you into a new tier where the price per kw/h is double or triple. Don’t forget the added fee to pay for panel upgrades and chargers for low income people.

[90503]

Charging station prices can be adjusted on the fly just like FastTrack car-pool lane prices. The more the usage and demand go up, so does the price.

[Seniorrs]

I'm sure the gov't will figure it out and make it fair for all.