[TheRealJA105]

Originally Posted by shaffe

The difference is you have to take the driver out of the bag and have it ride shotgun or fold the seats down in the camaro. Which one would think isn't that big of a deal unless you have a child seat in the back and can't fold the seats down bc the camaro rear seat isn't a split fold and are picking someone up for golf lol Which is where it really gives the Mustang the edge in trunk useability for me as a potential buyer lol

I don't even have my back seat in anymore and i put the bags in through the passenger door. It's very difficult anyway you do it. I usually just take the truck or the wife's grand cherokee, but sometimes i want to drive my car to the course.

[LESS1]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

This is where your hard on for the Camaro interferes with reality and the point I am making. Sure, it's a good handling car. You apparently are a top 1% enthusiast. But, the Camaro will not survive if GM doesn't make changes. So much for you being able to get what you consider the best if it doesn't even exist in the future.

And for the record, like you, I'm not brand loyal (anymore - as I used to be hardcore GM until the 2018 Mustang GT). I choose the car I thought was best for me that I liked the most - just like you did. Before I considered and bought the Mustang in the fall of 2018, I would have never thought I'd buy a Ford. Before the 2018s I was most likely to buy a Camaro SS, FWIW.

Your point is not lost on me, it just isn't relevant for my use case. Now I'm not making a direct comparison between Camaro and Porsche 911 and GT3 RS. However, for this discussion, I'm the RS buyer in the sense that the compromises to own an RS as opposed to a 911 are not compromises for folks like me. Priority 1 is going fast in a street legal car with minimal concern for daily driving. I no longer trailer my cars to the track so the only concession I make is the car must have AC that's it. I don't need all the other crap that comes with most cars these days. It adds unnecessary weight that degrades performance. However that said, I did order the PDR option, too much valuable data to pass on that.

Very glad to hear you are enjoying your Mustang and it checks the boxes you need to check. As buyers, we obviously have different needs. You are correct in that there are more buyers out there like yourself that need a vehicle to offer comfort and utility. Folks like myself are the low percentage of the market which cannot sustain a model/brand without a strong low end/entry level buyer. A possible exception in the GM domain is of course Corvette. But not for the reasons that motivate track rats into a brand/model. In this space, as I have stated previously Camaro is not that car since it is a performance focused car first. With less concession to certain general market needs as a lower priority and directly attributable to this performance first approach.

Concerning my "hard on", trust me if you spent a day or two on track with either SLE/ZL1/ZLE you'd understand. It's one thing to hear about how good these cars are from keyboard jockeys such as myself. It's an entirely different perspective when you are actually out on track in any of the above mentioned Camaros.

[LESS1]

Originally Posted by ZRacerLE

Same here. Track performance first and system engineered, not aftermarket modded. ZLE is perfect for me.

[LESS1]

Originally Posted by shaffe

I am glad you got the best track car for your money and glad you love it. Also glad you are one of the people that actually can appreciate it because it appears you push it to 10/10. Car works wonders for you as a track car and that's awesome.

What makes me mad is that the things that make it a no go for me appear to be styling based. Seeing everything GM has done lately, I have no doubts they could have at least given it a similar trunk /trunk opening to the Mustang and kept the same performance they have now.

Thanks for the kind words and I understand the potential pitfalls of the Alpha in Camaro guise. Wife and I just went to the golf course, she wanted to take the Camaro so we did. Honestly, I don't have any issues with having to put the back seat down in order to get a couple of golf bags in the trunk. Now if I had little ones and car seats I can see where this routine would grow old in a hurry.

[LESS1]

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

You seem to be completely missing how Chevy and GM see the Camaro to the portfolio of vehicles. The Camaro is a parts-bin car, and it is a vehicle that will get produced to help fill a factory to the maximum capacity. Cadillac has a platform (Alpha) that they use for the ATS and CTS. Those two cars did not sell enough (as well as other vehicles) to maximize the capacity of the factory these cars were built in. Therefore, the reached into the parts bin and created a Camaro to fill the gap.

What most folks don't realize, is that if the Cadillac sold BETTER and the factory was at maximum output, there may have not been a 6th Gen Camaro, as it wouldn't be needed, and they wouldn't build a new factory for just one low selling niche vehicle...

Fact is, Camaro's existence today and in the future, depends more on an available chassis, and a need to add output to a factory. As long as those two exist, there will probably be a Camaro (probably because they could potentially fill the gap with a different vehicle instead of the Camaro).

As for the future, I think Cadillac was going in a different direction and there is an AlphaII chasis. I believe (and this is pure conjecture here) the original plan was for the Gen7 Camaro to be on the AlphaII platform, but things changed drastically at Cadillac AND GM overall.

Cadillac is losing even more sales (even before the virus) as more folks shifted away from cars into SUVs, and Cadillac's luxury is not up to par with the Germans etc... Plus, GM (and everybody else) put a ton of development resources into electric vehicles. This has effected the Camaro timeline and resource availability. Hence, Camaro development is non-existent as far as we know.

Now, I also believe (and again, this is purely conjecture on my part) that the Camaro will skip the AlphaII platform and go directly to the VSS-R platform. Turns out, all manufacturers are in the process or drastically reducing the number of platforms to just a handful that are more flexible (can cover a wider range of vehicles), and GM is going to a total of four. Therefore, Camaro will have to wait a while longer for an available chassis, and development engineers to be available to work on it (since they are busy with electric vehicles). Hence, the extension of the life-cycle of the current Camaro.

But again, I am sure this is all up in the air right now at GM. They have to finish the initial push for EVs, Cadillac has to figure out where they are going (they seem lost right now), and then the bean counters have to see if there is a need to produce a Camaro alongside somthing(s) by Cadillac, in a factory that has some spare capacity. There is no way GM can even think about this right now, let alone make a decision. So, the Gen6 Camaro will hang on for many more years than were initially planned.

And by the way, much (but not all) of this story is ALSO happening at Ford with the Mustang. Ford has extended the life of the S550 for many of the same reasons. But the main difference, is that the Mustang is Ford's halo sports car, so it has to sell big, and therefore appeal to the masses (which is why it has a seating position and trunk opening of and Accord). Chevy's halo car is the Corvette (and it is getting a TON of attention). So, the Camaro doesn't have these practicality constraints holding it back like the Mustang.

AND, let's not forget that with the Corvette going mid-engine, there is no need to sand-bag with the Camaro so it won't get too close to Corvette performance (which Chevy seemed to stop doing with the Gen6 anyway). AND, Chevy may feel the Camaro may have more interest as the only front-engine sports car from Chevy. Also, there were some rumors that Corvette would be spun into it's own brand. So, the Camaro may become more of a halo car in the future.

So, let's stop with all the "Chevy better make a better trunk opening or Camaro will go away" crap. That's just not how things work. Ford will likely keep producing the Mustang as a halo until it just won't sell. And they will have to follow the market wherever it goes. Including making tons of compromises for practicality that make it a worse performing vehicle. Which may include and electric Mustang, a four door Mustang, a Mustang on an SUV platform... If this suits your needs, then I am glad you chose the Mustang. But for the rest of us who want performance, and don't need a big trunk opening, were good. We don't need anymore visibility or trunk opening lectures. That's not in any way, shape, or form going to be what determines if there will be a Gen7 Camaro or not.

Very well said.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

This is where your hard on for the Camaro interferes with reality and the point I am making. Sure, it's a good handling car. You apparently are a top 1% enthusiast. But, the Camaro will not survive if GM doesn't make changes. So much for you being able to get what you consider the best if it doesn't even exist in the future.

And for the record, like you, I'm not brand loyal (anymore - as I used to be hardcore GM until the 2018 Mustang GT). I choose the car I thought was best for me that I liked the most - just like you did. Before I considered and bought the Mustang in the fall of 2018, I would have never thought I'd buy a Ford. Before the 2018s I was most likely to buy a Camaro SS, FWIW.

What if I told you that the same performance you got out of the 2018 GT could have been bought back in 2016 but with adequate coolers and a ton of other features that don't even exist on the 18 Mustang or any other Mustang for that matter? See, based on your obvious fanboying from day 1 over here and your disregard for those of us who are over here and actually are proud Camaro fanboys, I'd say that you actually never was a Camaro fan and this is just some story you drummed up to try to make your points stick. I drove the 18 GT with A10 trans and it was nowhere near as impressive as you pretend it is. Now, that is, coming from a ZL1 and HC perspective. If I came from a 15-17 GT perspective (like I think you did) or from any previous Gen Mustang perspective then I would have been impressed. But the 18 GT was nothing to write home about. It matched what the SS did in 2016 except the SS also handled spectacularly which the GT did not. So save your "I used to be a Camaro guy" nonsense for somewhere else because nobody here buys that. You bought the 18 GT because it was far and away more than anything you ever experienced and it wowed your socks off.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by LESS1

Concerning my "hard on", trust me if you spent a day or two on track with either SLE/ZL1/ZLE you'd understand. It's one thing to hear about how good these cars are from keyboard jockeys such as myself. It's an entirely different perspective when you are actually out on track in any of the above mentioned Camaros.

Exactly.

[BlaqWhole]

People been preaching the Camaro's demise for a while now. And guess what. The ironic thing is that this whole pandemic might spell certain doom for ALL the RWD V8 American performance cars. Guess who will probably still be safe. The Vette, the GTR, the WRXs, the Evos, etc. Dodge, despite slapping a different badge over the Hellcat, is on life support and will be done probably before GM and Ford. Despite how the Ford guys were laughing about Dodge's killer sales which is still lower than Camaro sales back when Camaro sales were considered "terrible". Who can afford a $95K+ Hellcat Redeye with full options these days? That is why they had to offer all those huge discounts to get people to buy. And people still ain't gonna buy because they can't afford it. I mean, I can. But I'd be dumb as hell to buy another $70K+ vehicle. At best the R/Ts and V6s will sell and maybe some SRT8s. And possibly a bunch of used HCs and REs. The GT500 is a pathetic joke at the price these dealerships are trying to get. All for what? I could buy a M5 or Trackhawk and have a lot more practicality for the same money. But Ford guys are a special breed so they will absolutely pay $15K on top of MSRP for a golden ticket GT500 even tho a pandemic is in full force. GM is the only one who made the smart move by trimming the C8 prices for 2021. And it was a smart move to not incur additional costs by throwing badges everywhere and trying to develop a 7th trim of the same thing like Frod did. Mach1 my ass. In 03 the Mach1 was world's apart from the GT. Now what do I get? A Bullitt engine with a PP2 suspension and coolers all with a GT A10 trans option. For probably $63K. Don't make me laugh. If the Camaro goes under then it will be after the Chally. And the Mustang will be shortly after that with it's 27 different trims.

[LESS1]

Originally Posted by UnknownJinX

The modern ones usually aren't that bad, but they are still there if you pay attention unless you are buying a $100k+ car with tricks like an electric turbo. In a family car, it's no biggie, but in a sports car, it definitely takes away from the experience.

Either way, other than the slight torque advantage at lower RPM than the LT1 and the tuning potential(not that LF4 has a great aftermarket from what I have seen), I don't see the appeal of LF4 over LT1, and most people have expressed the same.

Another approach to reducing turbo lag is a lightweight clutch and flywheel. This is obviously a bit more extreme but very effective. On my turbo flat four, I was able to drop ~17lbs of reciprocating weight and it made a significant difference. The engine revs much quicker and gets into boost (around 2.4K RPM) in the first 3 gears so quick you have to be ready when you floor it otherwise you end up hitting the rev limiter.

[BlaqWhole]

What's next for 2022? A "Boss 302" badge on the Mach 1 but with the GT500 hood, GT350 coolers, GT350R suspension but "tuned for the Boss 302" which basically means it ain't worth crap, 6sp manual or maybe throw in the 7sp GT500 trans but it won't be a DCT, and whatever other Frankenstein nonsense they can throw at it to justify a $70K MSRP for a Mustang that won't even perform as well (horribly) as the GT350R did. Maybe some Boss 302 specific color options and a splitter and spoiler, lol. And once again it'll lose to the same old SLE but people will be like "why isn't GM answering back", lol!!

[UnknownJinX]

Originally Posted by LESS1

Another approach to reducing turbo lag is a lightweight clutch and flywheel. This is obviously a bit more extreme but very effective. On my turbo flat four, I was able to drop ~17lbs of reciprocating weight and it made a significant difference. The engine revs much quicker and gets into boost (around 2.4K RPM) in the first 3 gears so quick you have to be ready when you floor it otherwise you end up hitting the rev limiter.

But that has the cost of making the car harder to drive daily. It's easier to stall the car and you also have to be super quick with shifting.

To each of their own, some people don't mind the turbo as much.

Sent from toaster or something

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

What if I told you that the same performance you got out of the 2018 GT could have been bought back in 2016 but with adequate coolers and a ton of other features that don't even exist on the 18 Mustang or any other Mustang for that matter? See, based on your obvious fanboying from day 1 over here and your disregard for those of us who are over here and actually are proud Camaro fanboys, I'd say that you actually never was a Camaro fan and this is just some story you drummed up to try to make your points stick. I drove the 18 GT with A10 trans and it was nowhere near as impressive as you pretend it is. Now, that is, coming from a ZL1 and HC perspective. If I came from a 15-17 GT perspective (like I think you did) or from any previous Gen Mustang perspective then I would have been impressed. But the 18 GT was nothing to write home about. It matched what the SS did in 2016 except the SS also handled spectacularly which the GT did not. So save your "I used to be a Camaro guy" nonsense for somewhere else because nobody here buys that. You bought the 18 GT because it was far and away more than anything you ever experienced and it wowed your socks off.

An NA car with 200 or more less horsepower and 230 less ft-lbs torque probably won't feel that impressive compared to very powerful FI cars, unless it was very light (i.e., C6 Z06: 505 hp, 3150 lbs). As far as actual quickness vs feel, consider this: My car recently did 20-70 mph in 3.28 seconds after I added the few bolt ons listed in my signature. I haven't tested it since I replaced the factory PP1 wheels w/ much lighter SVE R350 wheels, but eliminating ~36 lbs of rotating wheel weight would further reduce that time to likely ~3.23 seconds, give or take. For what it's worth, 20-70 mph in 3.23 to 3.28 seconds is about as quick as an A10 ZL1. How it "feels" now with basic mods doesn't matter as much as the actual acceleration splits, I would think you can agree with that. And most likely, the ZL1 would feel different, probably feel quicker, due to the FI, even if it ran similar time splits because of the greater engine torque, when in reality, 3.2X seconds is 3.2X seconds. My car accomplishes this due to a very flat hp curve from 6000-7400 rpm, and the A10 keeps it there. And this was in Sport+ mode on my cold weather Michelin all seasons, not PS4S in drag mode. Shifts are at about 7,450 rpm +/- in automatic mode.

I have never owned a Mustang before this one. I've owned 4 cars my entire life (not counting the cars/SUVs I've bought my wife throughout the years). My first two cars were GM muscle cars (1987 Camaro Z28 and modified 1995 Trans Am) that I drove for a combined 12 years between the two of them.

Now, I never even considered buying a Mustang until October 2018, when I saw a black on black S550 pull up next to me at a light. PP1, dark tint, etc. I was floored at how much I liked the looks. Prior to that moment, I had decided I was going to replace my 2007 MazdaSpeed3 that I had for 11 years, and fully expecting to buy a Camaro SS as it was my default go-to having grown up in a GM family. I was always a "Fix or repair daily" kind of guy. Once I realized how much I liked the looks and styling of the new Mustangs, I did some research; compared power, performance, features, interior dimensions, tech., etc., and eventually went and test drove the car I ended bringing home (after having put a car seat in the rear seat during the test drive for my youngest).

I admit I never test drove a 6th gen SS, and if I had earlier prior to seeing that new Mustang and test driving it, I probably would have bought one as I'm sure they are impressive machines. However, once I drove the Mustang, I knew I didn't want the SS, plain and simple. I liked the Mustang that much. I still have no regrets to this day.

The great thing about this is we all are free to drive what we want, and that we still have good American choices to choose from depending on our preferences. Each American muscle car goes about it a little differently:

Camaro = sports car focused
Mustang = Grand Tourer focused
Challenger = True muscle car/big bruiser focus (i.e., straight line only focus)

You probably won't do this, but feel free to try to find a post of mine where I actually insult or dog the Camaro. And remember, discussing it's shortcomings in utility isn't an insult. I don't think you will find anything damning against me. I do like the Camaro, always have. But I simply like my Mustang better. Nothing wrong w/ that.

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

Originally Posted by LESS1

Your point is not lost on me, it just isn't relevant for my use case. Now I'm not making a direct comparison between Camaro and Porsche 911 and GT3 RS. However, for this discussion, I'm the RS buyer in the sense that the compromises to own an RS as opposed to a 911 are not compromises for folks like me. Priority 1 is going fast in a street legal car with minimal concern for daily driving. I no longer trailer my cars to the track so the only concession I make is the car must have AC that's it. I don't need all the other crap that comes with most cars these days. It adds unnecessary weight that degrades performance. However that said, I did order the PDR option, too much valuable data to pass on that.

Very glad to hear you are enjoying your Mustang and it checks the boxes you need to check. As buyers, we obviously have different needs. You are correct in that there are more buyers out there like yourself that need a vehicle to offer comfort and utility. Folks like myself are the low percentage of the market which cannot sustain a model/brand without a strong low end/entry level buyer. A possible exception in the GM domain is of course Corvette. But not for the reasons that motivate track rats into a brand/model. In this space, as I have stated previously Camaro is not that car since it is a performance focused car first. With less concession to certain general market needs as a lower priority and directly attributable to this performance first approach.

Concerning my "hard on", trust me if you spent a day or two on track with either SLE/ZL1/ZLE you'd understand. It's one thing to hear about how good these cars are from keyboard jockeys such as myself. It's an entirely different perspective when you are actually out on track in any of the above mentioned Camaros.

Fair points!

[wnta1ss]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

As far as actual quickness vs feel, consider this: My car recently did 20-70 mph in 3.28 seconds after I added the few bolt ons listed in my signature. I haven't tested it since I replaced the factory PP1 wheels w/ much lighter SVE R350 wheels, but eliminating ~36 lbs of rotating wheel weight would further reduce that time to likely ~3.23 seconds, give or take. For what it's worth, 20-70 mph in 3.23 to 3.28 seconds is about as quick as an A10 ZL1. How it "feels" now with basic mods doesn't matter as much as the actual acceleration splits, I would think you can agree with that. And most likely, the ZL1 would feel different, probably feel quicker, due to the FI, even if it ran similar time splits because of the greater engine torque, when in reality, 3.2X seconds is 3.2X seconds. My car accomplishes this due to a very flat hp curve from 6000-7400 rpm, and the A10 keeps it there. And this was in Sport+ mode on my cold weather Michelin all seasons, not PS4S in drag mode. Shifts are at about 7,450 rpm +/- in automatic mode.

When you claim that your 5.0 is as quick as a ZL1, you are using some kind of onbard timer toy to generate the 'times', correct? Have you actually run the car on a real dragstrip and compared it's times to the Camaros at the same track? Because I have seen the 2018 A10 Mustangs on the dragstrip, and the truth is that they are still a little behind the SS Camaro stock vs stock. This means so far behind a ZL1 that it's not even funny. Therefore, the idea that a few bolt-ons has now made your car equal to a ZL1 is ridiculous. I understand that you think it's really fast, many Mustang fanboys are obviously fooled by the louder exhaust and the higher redline of the Coyote. But actual timeslips tell a different tale. To be clear, not criticizing your choice of a Mustang, personal preference is fine and nobody can tell someone else what to buy. What I am criticizing though, is how you keep trying on this forum to prop the Mustang up above the Camaro.

BTW I do have experience with doing bolt-ons, and I can tell you that an A10 5.0 with catback, CAI, E85 tune, and drag radials ran much slower times than my SS did when it had very few bolt-ons. So I have an understanding of what mods do. Will point out that while you have a ported intake manifold and ported throttle body, this guy had an E85 tune, so don't think that you have a lot more power than he did. If you looked at it honestly, you would understand that if the modded Mustang was actually accelerating as hard as the stock ZL1, then the drag tires should have made it quicker than the stock ZL1 (via a better launch then an equal rate of acceleration), but the fact that it ran much slower times instead shows that the modded 5.0 was still not really equal in rate of acceleration to the stock ZL1.