[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by HuJass

So I think the GTO never met it's sales expectations.
Why? Because it wasn't retro styled. There was no connection between the new car one the old ones.

As far as the new Mustang is concerned, you can't compare sales of the last model year of the outgoing model to sales of the first model year of the new model.
You'd have to compare the 1st year sales of the outgoing model to the 1st year sales of the new model.

Agreed on the GTO, on top of that, what sells in Australia does not necessarily sell here. Couple that with the fact you are importing a car with limited production capacity. Did they actually think it was going to sell well or were the simply testing the waters?

Mustang's highest sales in one month was May 2012 for the last gen, until March 2015. They sold 2000+ more Mustangs this past month than their previous record. So yes you can compare, the new one is already doing better than the previous gen. Are there economic factors at work here? undoubtedly. The new Mustang's launch coincides with lower gas prices. I'm beginning to wonder if that might be playing a bigger factor than is apparent now. Time will tell. One thing is for sure, the 5th gen sales are tanking, expected? Probably.

[MBS]

"That probably goes for power, too. The Camaro will get a version of Chevy’s latest 6.2-liter LT1 V8 that’s currently under the hood of the Corvette Stingray, where it puts out up to 460 hp, compared to the Mustang’s 435 hp 5.0-liter V8. Expect turbocharged 4-cylinder and naturally aspirated V6 options, as well, although that's not been confirmed."


I like the sound of this , except was hoping for the twin turbo V6 option also

[fradaj]

Originally Posted by MBS

"That probably goes for power, too. The Camaro will get a version of Chevy’s latest 6.2-liter LT1 V8 that’s currently under the hood of the Corvette Stingray, where it puts out up to 460 hp, compared to the Mustang’s 435 hp 5.0-liter V8. Expect turbocharged 4-cylinder and naturally aspirated V6 options, as well, although that's not been confirmed."


I like the sound of this , except was hoping for the twin turbo V6 option also

LT1 is the only thing official. I am wondering if those two nostrils on the hood of some of those prototypes were there for a twin turbo motor of some kind.

[fradaj]

Originally Posted by SuperSound

Agreed on the GTO, on top of that, what sells in Australia does not necessarily sell here. Couple that with the fact you are importing a car with limited production capacity. Did they actually think it was going to sell well or were the simply testing the waters?

Mustang's highest sales in one month was May 2012 for the last gen, until March 2015. They sold 2000+ more Mustangs this past month than their previous record. So yes you can compare, the new one is already doing better than the previous gen. Are there economic factors at work here? undoubtedly. The new Mustang's launch coincides with lower gas prices. I'm beginning to wonder if that might be playing a bigger factor than is apparent now. Time will tell. One thing is for sure, the 5th gen sales are tanking, expected? Probably.

I wasn't the biggest fan of the GTO, but I thought that the G8 was a pretty nice car. The chassis and motor I believe were similar.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by Jeb114

This is a passage from the book, Why did Pontiac fail. This paragraph is about the new GTO.

"This was a great car, that was never launched right. Basically, all GM did was to re-work the car for left hand drive (in which this was no small task), and then replace the grill, add badging, and that was it. Unfortunately, just replacing the grill made the rather pricey GTO look like the Grand Prix or Grand Am that you could pick up at the rental counter on your next business trip. It never really stood out from the crowd. The car was also priced above expectations, with a retail price above $33,000. Dealers also tacked on a surcharge for the first ones in the country, though that didn't last, and 2004 models were selling at deep discounts late into 2005. The 2005 and 2006 models received a different hood that helped, and a new 6.0L V8 made standard in the car, but sales failed to live up to the 18,000 per year target, with 15,780 of the 2004 model year imported, a little over 11,000 for 2005, and just under 14,000 for the last year of 2006."

in answer to your other question, No the new mustang is based off the retro version, in 2004 the Fox body mustang sales were falling like the Camaro. Challenger did not exist. What I am saying is retro is the only reason the pony cars exist today, and the farther they get away from the styling points the sales will slow. People like there muscle cars. Jurassic.

I had heard that the US dollar weakened after GM committed to the GTO and pushed the price higher than originally planned.

[WHAMMO]

Bout the GTO, there was only a V8 option, so we would have to compare the sales volume to V8 version of Camaros Stangs n Challies...

[hammdo]

Originally Posted by HuJass

Truth.
Muscle cars and pony cars need to be retro.
Any thing else is a mistake.

-Don

[HuJass]

Originally Posted by '01LS1

Probably semantics, but if you brand a car with the GTO name it has to share some sort of design progression from the memories of the buyers targeted.

Besides if retro is all that it took to capture sales, explain the Challengers low sales volume? Challenger did little to move their design forward like Camaro & Mustang & it has lagged in last place of the segment from the get go.

- In response to your first sentence, Exactly!!
And the same holds true for Camaro and Challenger. And, to a lesser degree, Mustang. The car has to be tied to the glory days of that model.

- Chrysler purposely held back production of the Challenger. They targeted it's production to be a certain small percentage of total LX production. Simple as that.
And it seems Chrysler has relaxed that a bit as they are selling way more Challengers lately; the monthly numbers are much higher than they used to be.

[fbodfather]

Originally Posted by HuJass

- In response to your first sentence, Exactly!!
And the same holds true for Camaro and Challenger. And, to a lesser degree, Mustang. The car has to be tied to the glory days of that model.

- Chrysler purposely held back production of the Challenger. They targeted it's production to be a certain small percentage of total LX production. Simple as that.
And it seems Chrysler has relaxed that a bit as they are selling way more Challengers lately; the monthly numbers are much higher than they used to be.

First - the GTO was always -- ALWAYS a limited entry into the market - there was not the production capacity available to make it any other way.

We can argue about the nameplate (for the record, I would not have called it GTO...) -- but if you knew the engineering costs just to move the gas tank to meet U. S. standards, you'd be stunned.

Chrysler has not held back on challenger production - in fact they've spent substantially more money in rebates than either Mustang or Camaro to move the metal. They ARE delivering more cars in fleet and of course they've got a hot new entry the Hellcat. That brings people into showrooms and translates into sales.

As to 'retro' - go talk to a bunch of 30 year olds in volume and you'll find that they don't see the 5th gen as a retro design -- rather, they see it as a cool new style. The magic is that those of us north of 50+ see retro-cues.

There's an old adage in this industry:

'you can sell an old man a young man's car - but you can't sell a young man an old man's car'

(and yes, there are always exceptions to the rule........)

It's a GREAT time to be a Camaro enthusiast.

[Angrybird 12]

Originally Posted by fbodfather

First - the GTO was always -- ALWAYS a limited entry into the market - there was not the production capacity available to make it any other way.

We can argue about the nameplate (for the record, I would not have called it GTO...) -- but if you knew the engineering costs just to move the gas tank to meet U. S. standards, you'd be stunned.

Chrysler has not held back on challenger production - in fact they've spent substantially more money in rebates than either Mustang or Camaro to move the metal. They ARE delivering more cars in fleet and of course they've got a hot new entry the Hellcat. That brings people into showrooms and translates into sales.

As to 'retro' - go talk to a bunch of 30 year olds in volume and you'll find that they don't see the 5th gen as a retro design -- rather, they see it as a cool new style. The magic is that those of us north of 50+ see retro-cues.

There's an old adage in this industry:

'you can sell an old man a young man's car - but you can't sell a young man an old man's car'

(and yes, there are always exceptions to the rule........)

It's a GREAT time to be a Camaro enthusiast.

Some of the younger folks on here think a new Camaro looking like a 4th gen would be retro. And I have seen several post they don't know anything about Camaro heritage and don't care to learn their history. To me that's a shame.

[newb]

Originally Posted by fbodfather

As to 'retro' - go talk to a bunch of 30 year olds in volume and you'll find that they don't see the 5th gen as a retro design -- rather, they see it as a cool new style. The magic is that those of us north of 50+ see retro-cues.



There's an old adage in this industry:



'you can sell an old man a young man's car - but you can't sell a young man an old man's car'



(and yes, there are always exceptions to the rule........)



It's a GREAT time to be a Camaro enthusiast.

As a 30 something I will agree and disagree with this statement. I know plenty of people my age who know the history and see the carryover. But we are car guys. The average 30 something does not. That's where the "gills look out of place" and "the gauges in those pods looks wrong" comments come from. They don't know it's a modern take on an icon. They just see a cool car. That is also where the comments about the size come from. I have parked my 5th Gen beside a 69. And my beloved car is a boat beside the 1st gen cars.

[mt3130]

I personally think that attaching too much to the Camaro's past pigeon holes you as far as where you can take it in the future. Look at how much the Camaro changed from the the first through the fourth generations.

Major change IS the Camaro's heritage, much in the way that not being able to tell the difference between any BMW or Porsche produced in the last 15 years is their heritage.

In my opinion, if Chevy takes that approach with its models, buyers will look elsewhere. Those brands sell for the cache and bragging rights that come along with them. By all accounts, the new BMW 3 series has completely lost its identity, yet sales have never been better. In order for Chevy to achieve and sustain success, it needs to come with fresh products and features that buyers want. For all you guys that love hard plastics and paying $40k for a stripped down model, that will still be an option, but it wouldn't be wise to assume that's what everyone wants.

Personally, I would like to see Chevy adopt Ford's model of refreshing the Mustang every 3 years. If you are going to have a 6 year generation cycle, why wait until the 5th model year to do the refresh? The original design gets stale, and by the time the refresh comes out, everyone is looking forward to the next generation. The 5th gen refresh had one good model year, followed by a year of getting its butt kicked by the Mustang and even the Challenger, even with GM offering 20% off MSRP.

People are choosing with their wallets to pay more money for less performance twice over when you look at the new Mustang sales compared to the new Camaro. I know that all of you will say that its because I'm comparing a new Mustang to an old Camaro, but the Camaro was refreshed just one year prior to the new Mustang, and outperforms the new Mustang, so the comparison isn't completely unreasonable.

If GM knew the Mustang was going to curb stomp the Camaro in sales this year, why the hell didn't they work to get the Camaro to market in early to mid 2015, rather than halfway through the 2016 model year? It seems to me that GM didn't anticipate the refreshed Camaro falling out of favor so fast.

[newb]

Originally Posted by mt3130

I personally think that attaching too much to the Camaro's past pigeon holes you as far as where you can take it in the future. Look at how much the Camaro changed from the the first through the fourth generations.

Major change IS the Camaro's heritage, much in the way that not being able to tell the difference between any BMW or Porsche produced in the last 15 years is their heritage.

In my opinion, if Chevy takes that approach with its models, buyers will look elsewhere. Those brands sell for the cache and bragging rights that come along with them. By all accounts, the new BMW 3 series has completely lost its identity, yet sales have never been better. In order for Chevy to achieve and sustain success, it needs to come with fresh products and features that buyers want. For all you guys that love hard plastics and paying $40k for a stripped down model, that will still be an option, but it wouldn't be wise to assume that's what everyone wants.

Personally, I would like to see Chevy adopt Ford's model of refreshing the Mustang every 3 years. If you are going to have a 6 year generation cycle, why wait until the 5th model year to do the refresh? The original design gets stale, and by the time the refresh comes out, everyone is looking forward to the next generation. The 5th gen refresh had one good model year, followed by a year of getting its butt kicked by the Mustang and even the Challenger, even with GM offering 20% off MSRP.

People are choosing with their wallets to pay more money for less performance twice over when you look at the new Mustang sales compared to the new Camaro. I know that all of you will say that its because I'm comparing a new Mustang to an old Camaro, but the Camaro was refreshed just one year prior to the new Mustang, and outperforms the new Mustang, so the comparison isn't completely unreasonable.

If GM knew the Mustang was going to curb stomp the Camaro in sales this year, why the hell didn't they work to get the Camaro to market in early to mid 2015, rather than halfway through the 2016 model year? It seems to me that GM didn't anticipate the refreshed Camaro falling out of favor so fast.

The new Camaro will be available for the majority of the 16 model year. Presumably of course.

[mt3130]

Originally Posted by newb

The new Camaro will be available for the majority of the 16 model year. Presumably of course.

Not necessarily. Typically you start seeing new cars in late summer/early fall (July - September). GM has already said the car won't go on sale until late fall, which could be as late as the end of December (fall ends the third week of December).