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Old 10-17-2021, 04:52 PM   #29
Norm Peterson
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Originally Posted by 2cnd chance View Post
I’m skeptical, however there is a big opportunity to make a superior handling and braking sporty car. Just consider the weight distribution and COG possible.
Just don't overlook the adverse effects due to an EV's overall weight penalty.


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Old 10-17-2021, 05:00 PM   #30
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You don't consider the Porsche Taycan or Audi etron GT sporty? Wow, you are picky.
Is it picky to want less luxury and a much lower price in your sports/sporty car?


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Old 10-17-2021, 05:13 PM   #31
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OK, but they still don't actually show anything. Its smoke and mirrors. Even the burnout on the stone bridge was fake with the real Challenger.

When the title of the thread is "Do you think Chevy will release something like this?" and this is a hype commercial, then yes, I think Chevy will do one as well. If it is reference to some EV muscle car, then show me the car. In essence, Dodge has show as much of their EV sports car as GM has. Both have said they are going to make one, but have nothing to show past that.

The clip was a fancy magic trick. They wanted to look in their left hand so you would never question what was under the handkerchief in their right hand.
Thing is, that was not a hype commercial. Some of it might eventually find its way into a commercial, but what that was was about 5 minutes out of a 2 or 3 hour Stellantis presentation to the media and shareholders. You had the head of Stellantis Performance, Tim Kuniskis, flat out state that in 2024 Dodge will introduce an electric muscle car. That’s like Elon Musk saying Tesla will build a pickup truck. You can choose to not believe him, but this is exactly what he told the shareholders and the assembled media. The only person who can legit tell him he won’t is Carlos Tavares, the CEO of Stellantis. The guy who’s pushing all of Stellantis towards EV.
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Old 10-17-2021, 05:15 PM   #32
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They will be no more boring or similar than they are today.

There is so much more to the character of a vehicle than its propulsion system. A lot. And the company does it best will win.
For the car market overall, that's probably true. But what about the enthusiast who holds a somewhat different definition of 'character'? Some preferences do not lend themselves to high-tech solutions or acceptance through synthesized tactile or auditory approaches.


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Old 10-17-2021, 05:35 PM   #33
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For the car market overall, that's probably true. But what about the enthusiast who holds a somewhat different definition of 'character'? Some preferences do not lend themselves to high-tech solutions or acceptance through synthesized tactile or auditory approaches.


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You mean like the diehard carb guys? Then they/we fall to the wayside. Progress happens. Some adapt, most don't care/notice, and a few form a practically inconsequential "resistance". There will likely be a LOT of holdouts that keep that niche, within a niche, within a niche alive, but it'll all be third party affairs. Small, expensive, third-party affairs.
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Old 10-17-2021, 06:16 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by crysalis_01 View Post
You mean like the diehard carb guys? Then they/we fall to the wayside. Progress happens. Some adapt, most don't care/notice, and a few form a practically inconsequential "resistance". There will likely be a LOT of holdouts that keep that niche, within a niche, within a niche alive, but it'll all be third party affairs. Small, expensive, third-party affairs.
No - not the die-hard carb guys. Thats a bad comparison/analogy. Fuel injection was a replacement for one small system on an engine and its better in basically every. Sure, if you have a collectible car that you show and want to or have to keep it stock then thats different. Short of that, there isnt a big "carb forever" club...is there?

You're talking about a 100% fundamental change to how performance cars will operate. Its the entire "engine" being replaced by batteries. How does a battery "improve" the driving experience? Ill answer: It doesnt. How does a battery make the ownership experience better? It doesnt. How does a battery facilitate upgrades, tweaking and other very much enjoyable hobby aspect of "toy" car ownership? It doesnt. Geesh - even on Camaro forums we cant get away from stupid battery stuff. Ugh.

Guess we'll just stick to our niche although I believe there is a damned huge following for ICE cars. It wont be a niche at all.
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Old 10-17-2021, 06:42 PM   #35
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For the car market overall, that's probably true. But what about the enthusiast who holds a somewhat different definition of 'character'? Some preferences do not lend themselves to high-tech solutions or acceptance through synthesized tactile or auditory approaches.


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Norm, that “character” is only defined by NVH. That’s it. Noise and and vibration. Evert hint els3 will likely be FAR superior. And as I’ve said many, many times I get that and have enjoyed that. But at least be up front that you just need a loud, tuned exhaust to make it “better”

Note that most expensive cars don’t have the vibration issues, just the tuned noise.
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Old 10-17-2021, 06:43 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by s2mikey View Post
No - not the die-hard carb guys. Thats a bad comparison/analogy. Fuel injection was a replacement for one small system on an engine and its better in basically every. Sure, if you have a collectible car that you show and want to or have to keep it stock then thats different. Short of that, there isnt a big "carb forever" club...is there?

You're talking about a 100% fundamental change to how performance cars will operate. Its the entire "engine" being replaced by batteries. How does a battery "improve" the driving experience? Ill answer: It doesnt. How does a battery make the ownership experience better? It doesnt. How does a battery facilitate upgrades, tweaking and other very much enjoyable hobby aspect of "toy" car ownership? It doesnt. Geesh - even on Camaro forums we cant get away from stupid battery stuff. Ugh.

Guess we'll just stick to our niche although I believe there is a damned huge following for ICE cars. It wont be a niche at all.
I think EV can improve on driving and ownership experience, but they are highly subjective areas that need to be answered as individuals.

Like you, I will stick with a stick shift ICE fun car. And note I said fun, not fast. EVs can do 0.1s 0-60 and it doesn't matter and is also frankly useless for daily driving. Granted, EVs are quieter and can get away with some level of aggressive acceleration more easily than an ICE sports car, but if you are going 60 MPH down a 30 MPH road, a cop will be able to tell.

Then again, for someone living in a bigger city with competent public transit, I am finding myself preferring that and cycling to driving an EV. I mentioned this in other threads, but EVs don't solve the fundamental issues of bad traffic and tough, expensive parking for me. Public transits and cycling have their own limitations for sure, but in downtown areas, they are generally not terrible options.

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Originally Posted by Number 3 View Post
Norm, that “character” is only defined by NVH. That’s it. Noise and and vibration. Evert hint els3 will likely be FAR superior. And as I’ve said many, many times I get that and have enjoyed that. But at least be up front that you just need a loud, tuned exhaust to make it “better”

Note that most expensive cars don’t have the vibration issues, just the tuned noise.
That's not a small part of a sports car experience, though. You don't see people hating on Formula 1, but talk about Formula E and you can see some people disgruntling. I will leave you to connect the dots.

You also talk like you live a quarter-mile at a time with the whole "EV performance is better." I mean, I get that performance is important, but there is a reason why people like cars like Miata. It's not the best in terms of performance, but if you have never driven one, I feel bad for you. You have to understand that fun and performance are not necessarily tied together. They don't tend to be mutually exclusive but that can happen.

The true irony is that even at open tracking days where car performance can matter, people are there for the experience and the fun, not "my horse is bigger than yours." There are all kinds of cars there, all from different performance categories. If EV floats your boat and can bring you that experience, absolutely, but not everyone is like that.

And a little bit of vibration isn't a bad thing for a car like a Camaro SS. It's supposed to be raw and brute. That's what American V8 means to me.
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Old 10-17-2021, 07:17 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by UnknownJinX View Post
I think EV can improve on driving and ownership experience, but they are highly subjective areas that need to be answered as individuals.

Like you, I will stick with a stick shift ICE fun car. And note I said fun, not fast. EVs can do 0.1s 0-60 and it doesn't matter and is also frankly useless for daily driving. Granted, EVs are quieter and can get away with some level of aggressive acceleration more easily than an ICE sports car, but if you are going 60 MPH down a 30 MPH road, a cop will be able to tell.

Then again, for someone living in a bigger city with competent public transit, I am finding myself preferring that and cycling to driving an EV. I mentioned this in other threads, but EVs don't solve the fundamental issues of bad traffic and tough, expensive parking for me. Public transits and cycling have their own limitations for sure, but in downtown areas, they are generally not terrible options.

That's not a small part of a sports car experience, though. You don't see people hating on Formula 1, but talk about Formula E and you can see some people disgruntling. I will leave you to connect the dots.

You also talk like you live a quarter-mile at a time with the whole "EV performance is better." I mean, I get that performance is important, but there is a reason why people like cars like Miata. It's not the best in terms of performance, but if you have never driven one, I feel bad for you. You have to understand that fun and performance are not necessarily tied together. They don't tend to be mutually exclusive but that can happen.

The true irony is that even at open tracking days where car performance can matter, people are there for the experience and the fun, not "my horse is bigger than yours." There are all kinds of cars there, all from different performance categories. If EV floats your boat and can bring you that experience, absolutely, but not everyone is like that.

And a little bit of vibration isn't a bad thing for a car like a Camaro SS. It's supposed to be raw and brute. That's what American V8 means to me.

I approve of this message. . Im actually quite surprised that there is much excitement at all over turning weekend toys into a Nissan Leaf wannabe. Why cant EVs and ICE cars co-exist? There is no reason whatsoever they cannot.
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Old 10-17-2021, 07:21 PM   #38
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I approve of this message. . Im actually quite surprised that there is much excitement at all over turning weekend toys into a Nissan Leaf wannabe. Why cant EVs and ICE cars co-exist? There is no reason whatsoever they cannot.
They will have to. It will not be possible to make a wholesale change overnight. It will take a decade, probably two, for EV production to exceed ICE production. Then there’s the whole issue of vehicles already on the road. It will take a few decades to replace the vehicles in operation. We’re talking billion with a b vehicles. And that’s just the US. Not Canada, not Mexico, not the rest of the world.
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Old 10-17-2021, 07:28 PM   #39
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They will have to. It will not be possible to make a wholesale change overnight. It will take a decade, probably two, for EV production to exceed ICE production. Then there’s the whole issue of vehicles already on the road. It will take a few decades to replace the vehicles in operation. We’re talking billion with a b vehicles. And that’s just the US. Not Canada, not Mexico, not the rest of the world.
Agreed. I suspect some of us may not even be around anymore when EVs are more the norm versus an "extra" car that people add to their stables.
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Old 10-17-2021, 07:31 PM   #40
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While all the talk is EVs lately it is nice to see some cars make a return. Nissan Z with 400hp and a manual 6 speed, new versions of the GT86/BRZ, Acura Integra announced with a 6 speed manual, Supra/BMW, Lexus IS500 with a V8. It looks like all the Japanese brands are starting to release enthusiast vehicles while GM will only have the Corvette, which has a ~$70k cost of entry.

At least Dodge is trying to get ahead of it a create a performance brand for EVs. Going fast in an EV is easy, it is the other stuff that will be hard to get just right. For example, if Dodge tries to simulate sound of exhaust then it will have to be as good or better than a real exhaust otherwise it will be a failure. Another example, would be driving dynamics. With 500+ ft lbs of instant torque you should be able to light up the tires but if Dodge does what Tesla does with their traction control/stability control the car will not be playful at all. It will just cut power until it grips.

I am open minded and I hope they will build something that is fun to drive. For example, I think an EV based Miata would be a riot. Keep the battery small (250 miles of range), RWD only. Imagine 350-400 ft lbs of torque in 2500lb vehicle.
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Old 10-17-2021, 07:45 PM   #41
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Do any of you think electric go karts are boring? Are they more boring than gas powered go karts?

I find both electric and gas to be fun as hell, so I'm totally willing to try an electric muscle car.

Can't wait until Dodge says "We're no longer making the Hemi. We're now making the Hem-E!"
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Old 10-17-2021, 07:55 PM   #42
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I am open minded and I hope they will build something that is fun to drive. For example, I think an EV based Miata would be a riot. Keep the battery small (250 miles of range), RWD only. Imagine 350-400 ft lbs of torque in 2500lb vehicle.
Not doable with current battery tech, especially at a reasonable cost.

Someone over at the Miata forum did the math already. It could be light, but not Miata light. 2500 lbs is hard to do without sacrificing a lot of range. Also, this is talking about a conversion process. If Mazda has to design a Miata-like car ground up, then there are things like safety regulations, etc. to worry about which can result in even more weight.
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