[MEDISIN]

Originally Posted by crysalis_01

Therein lies the rub. Looking at the sales totals shows ATS being handily outsold by MKZ.

ATS 2016... jan-1,067 feb-1,591 mar-1,859- apr-1,737 may-1,630 jun-1,880 jul-2,119 aug-2,477 sep-1,770 oct-1,593 ytd-17,723

Read more: http://gmauthority.com/blog/gm/cadil...#ixzz4RYCznY9R

MKZ 2016 jan-1,946 feb-2,128 mar-2,480 apr-2,129 may-3,250 jun-2,760 jul-2,968 aug-2,754 sep- 2,447 oct-2,481 yrd-25,343

Read more: http://fordauthority.com/fmc/ford-mo...#ixzz4RYDdMWaE

Apples to oranges really. You're comparing a small RWD sport-oriented luxury coupe/sedan to a mid-size FWD upscale/luxury sedan? How many people are cross-shopping these cars? Given the price and percentage fleet sales, of course the MKZ is going to appeal to a broader market.

2016 Sales YTD:
MKZ: 25,343
ATS: 17,723
CTS: 13,172
XTS: 16,389
CT6: 6,707
MKS: 4,647
Cont: 1,997

Now lets sort them by RETAIL sales YTD:
ATS: 16,872
MKZ: 15,712
CTS: 12,685
XTS: 11,144
MKS: 3,392
CT6: (?)
Cont: (?)

Ooops, now you realize much of Lincoln sales is fleet/rental.

Finally, let's sort them by actual transaction prices.

2016 ATP YTD:
CT6: $65,331
CTS: $54,642
Cont: $54,381
XTS: $53,047
ATS: $44,791
MKS: $43,527
MKZ: $39,299

Now you see why the MKZ outsells the ATS in total sales. It is larger, cheaper and sells a higher percentage to fleet. It's a fine people hauler/Uber car but its pricing and market position is more in line with Lexus ES, Acura RLX and Buick LaCrosse than with anything Cadillac has to offer.

[shaffe]

Where do you get those numbers from? the breakdown between fleet and retail? Legit just curious lol

And yes Lincoln IMO is not gunning for Cadillac yet. Lexus Acura and Buick like MEDISIN said do seem to be more of what Lincoln is going after right now.

[MEDISIN]

Originally Posted by shaffe

Where do you get those numbers from? the breakdown between fleet and retail? Legit just curious lol

And yes Lincoln IMO is not gunning for Cadillac yet. Lexus Acura and Buick like MEDISIN said do seem to be more of what Lincoln is going after right now.

http://www.autonews.com/section/datalist22

November data is not posted yet - usually by the second week of the month. The Lincoln brand average fleet percentage for 2016 is 18%, up from 16% this time last year. Cadillac on the other hand is at 6% fleet YTD (in-line with other luxury brands). It's no secret FoMoCo has focused heavily on fleet sales this year to offset the contracting market. They look to finish the year at around 28% (up slightly from 25% most years). GM on the other hand has shrunk from 24% to 18% fleet as they focus on growing retail sales. Most of that shrinkage came from rental as commercial/government fleet is slightly more profitable.

[shaffe]

Booo paid subscription required lol

Thanks MEDISIN!

[crysalis_01]

Originally Posted by MEDISIN

Apples to oranges really. You're comparing a small RWD sport-oriented luxury coupe/sedan to a mid-size FWD upscale/luxury sedan? How many people are cross-shopping these cars? Given the price and percentage fleet sales, of course the MKZ is going to appeal to a broader market.

2016 Sales YTD:
MKZ: 25,343
ATS: 17,723
CTS: 13,172
XTS: 16,389
CT6: 6,707
MKS: 4,647
Cont: 1,997

Now lets sort them by RETAIL sales YTD:
ATS: 16,872
MKZ: 15,712
CTS: 12,685
XTS: 11,144
MKS: 3,392
CT6: (?)
Cont: (?)

Ooops, now you realize much of Lincoln sales is fleet/rental.

Finally, let's sort them by actual transaction prices.

2016 ATP YTD:
CT6: $65,331
CTS: $54,642
Cont: $54,381
XTS: $53,047
ATS: $44,791
MKS: $43,527
MKZ: $39,299

Now you see why the MKZ outsells the ATS in total sales. It is larger, cheaper and sells a higher percentage to fleet. It's a fine people hauler/Uber car but its pricing and market position is more in line with Lexus ES, Acura RLX and Buick LaCrosse than with anything Cadillac has to offer.

Agreed, wholeheartedly. To be fair, I'm not the one who brought up Cadillac. . .

Originally Posted by DGthe3

I'd much rather have a CTS-Vsport over that. And I don't particularly want a CTS-Vsport.

Originally Posted by SSEssence

Anything based on a FWD chassis is not a Hot Rod to me even with 400 hp, I'll take a ATS V over that anyday!

Originally Posted by DRKS1D3

The interior looks great, the exterior is likeable (the integrated spoiler is very sharp), the wheels are hideous and too skinny. A more aggressive looking 5-spoke would be more attractive with ~275 tires on all corners. It is certainly no ATS-V.

Originally Posted by DRKS1D3

I wasn't insinuating that Ford was trying to make a direct adversary to the ATS-V. One can make the correlation between the two however. Ford has dropped a more powerful engine into this iteration of the vehicle in order to make it stand apart from its siblings of the same name. The ATS-V is in a completely different segment than what Ford is going for with Lincoln. They are trying to recapture the crowd that once adored the Lincoln luxury years ago. Heck, Lincoln was on the cusp of folding up with Mercury not too long ago. It's an interesting vehicle for a 50+ year old business executive; however, being 35, I'm more attracted to the ATS-V.

And honestly, i never would have brought up Cadillac, because of the very reasons you yourself mentioned. I was only responding comparison made by others and expressing why the current MKZ is the better option for Lincoln now, than a ATS/CTS style vehicle. Notice how not one of of the above posts said anything along the lines of "it's no LaX" or "I'd rather have a RLX".

As to MKZ's pricing aligning with Buick's, I'm not really seeing that completely, there is definitely overlap, but I imagine we'll only see aid overlap get smaller and smaller as Lincoln continues its current trend.


Yes there are more fleet involved but sales are sales. And Lincoln at this point need those sales to increase their revenue flow. Building a more "exiting" sedan that sells in fewer numbers, because of the reason you mentioned, does then no good to build a revenue stream...at this point.

[MEDISIN]

Originally Posted by shaffe

Booo paid subscription required lol
Thanks MEDISIN!

Got to pay to play

Originally Posted by crysalis_01

As to MKZ's pricing aligning with Buick's, I'm not really seeing that completely, there is definitely overlap, but I imagine we'll only see aid overlap get smaller and smaller as Lincoln continues its current trend.

Sure the MKZ range travels higher but that is not where the sales are. When you look at the price people are actually paying and the resulting sales volume, it sits between the ES and LaCrosse in both price and volume.

Lexus ES: ATP: $41,432, YTD Sales: 47,963
Lincoln MKZ: ATP: $39,299, YTD Sales: 25,343
Buick LaCrosse: ATP: $38,679, YTD Sales: 22,329

Originally Posted by crysalis_01

Yes there are more fleet involved but sales are sales. And Lincoln at this point need those sales to increase their revenue flow. Building a more "exiting" sedan that sells in fewer numbers, because of the reason you mentioned, does then no good to build a revenue stream...at this point.

The goal of an automaker is not sales. The goal is revenue and subsequent profit. You think Porsche cares it only sold 50k automobiles in the U.S. last year? Lincoln and Ford can chase volume (fleet) all they want but it doesn't make financial sense if you're losing revenue on each sale vs retail. Not only is Cadillac outselling Lincoln handily with their "exciting" sedans, they are making far more money doing it.

To FoMoCo's benefit, the cost of the MKZ and Continental are spread across their platform sharing cousins (Fusion, Edge, Galaxy, Mondeo, S-Max, Taurus, MKS, Explorer, Flex, MKT) so profit margin as a percentage is likely higher on the Lincoln's vs Cadillac's. But brand transaction prices for the two are $15k apart. Lincoln sits closer to GMC in this regard, but trucks are crazy profitable.

[Snoman]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

I'd much rather have a CTS-Vsport over that. And I don't particularly want a CTS-Vsport.

A Hyundai-Volvo-Ford bastard offspring with a Lincoln badge?

No thank you, I'd also take a slightly used CTS-V over it 7 days a week.

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by crysalis_01

Agreed, wholeheartedly. To be fair, I'm not the one who brought up Cadillac. . .









And honestly, i never would have brought up Cadillac, because of the very reasons you yourself mentioned. I was only responding comparison made by others and expressing why the current MKZ is the better option for Lincoln now, than a ATS/CTS style vehicle. Notice how not one of of the above posts said anything along the lines of "it's no LaX" or "I'd rather have a RLX".

As to MKZ's pricing aligning with Buick's, I'm not really seeing that completely, there is definitely overlap, but I imagine we'll only see aid overlap get smaller and smaller as Lincoln continues its current trend.


Yes there are more fleet involved but sales are sales. And Lincoln at this point need those sales to increase their revenue flow. Building a more "exiting" sedan that sells in fewer numbers, because of the reason you mentioned, does then no good to build a revenue stream...at this point.

You don't need to build sales to build revenue. Build great cars & people will pay a premium for them. And buy them in decent numbers too. It takes a lot of time, money, and effort to pull off. And nothing says that the cars have to be great in any particular way either. Lexus and BMW are both very successful with wildly different approaches.


Not all sales are created equal. About the worst thing you can do for a luxury brand is to dump vehicles to rental companies. Not only to the rentals typically buy the cheapest version they can get (which hurts brand image when a person rents it & gets disappointed at the lack of features ... as well as bringing in less money for the automaker), but at the end of its service those cars are worth a lot less than their twins sold to the retail market. That drags the average resale value for the entire model line, which in turn makes leasing far less attractive. And if you don't have good leasing deals for your luxury brand, its not going anywhere.

Granted, a lot of Lincolns fleet sales are for limousine services as opposed to rentals but I'm sure the same logic is still going to apply. I can't see used limo's commanding a premium at auction compared to a used rental of the same make & model. Could even be worse as there is going to be an extremely limited market for limos that have reached the end of their service life.

[crysalis_01]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

You don't need to build sales to build revenue. Build great cars & people will pay a premium for them. And buy them in decent numbers too. It takes a lot of time, money, and effort to pull off. And nothing says that the cars have to be great in any particular way either. Lexus and BMW are both very successful with wildly different approaches.


Not all sales are created equal. About the worst thing you can do for a luxury brand is to dump vehicles to rental companies. Not only to the rentals typically buy the cheapest version they can get (which hurts brand image when a person rents it & gets disappointed at the lack of features ... as well as bringing in less money for the automaker), but at the end of its service those cars are worth a lot less than their twins sold to the retail market. That drags the average resale value for the entire model line, which in turn makes leasing far less attractive. And if you don't have good leasing deals for your luxury brand, its not going anywhere.

Granted, a lot of Lincolns fleet sales are for limousine services as opposed to rentals but I'm sure the same logic is still going to apply. I can't see used limo's commanding a premium at auction compared to a used rental of the same make & model. Could even be worse as there is going to be an extremely limited market for limos that have reached the end of their service life.

Again, your arguing point I agree with. I too wish Lincoln was making exciting to drive sport sedans along with money printing SUV's. But they have to work up to that point. Lets look at the numbers provided by MEDSIN above, ATP's and sales totals, and the revenue you and I both are speaking to. Which is the better path for Lincoln to be taking right now?

ATS @ $44,791×17,723units = $793,830,893

Or

MKZ @ $39,299 x 25,343units = $995,954,557

[MEDISIN]

Originally Posted by crysalis_01

Again, your arguing point I agree with. I too wish Lincoln was making exciting to drive sport sedans along with money printing SUV's. But they have to work up to that point. Lets look at the numbers provided by MEDSIN above, ATP's and sales totals, and the revenue you and I both are speaking to. Which is the better path for Lincoln to be taking right now?

ATS @ $44,791×17,723units = $793,830,893

Or

MKZ @ $39,299 x 25,343units = $995,954,557

I would caution against the assumption that Lincoln is earning $39k for the nearly 10,000 MKZ that sold to fleet. I can't tell you how much they averaged but safe to assume fleet has much lower margins than retail.

But lets give them the benefit of assuming all cars were sold at retail prices, including the Continental. There's still the fact that the Cadillac buyer has 4 sedans to choose from vs Lincoln's 3 (soon to be 2).

Cadillac - $2.82B
ATS: 17,723 x $44,791 = $794M
CTS: 13,172 x $54,642 = $720M
XTS: 16,389 x $53,047 = $869M
CT6: 6,707 x $65,331 = $438M

Lincoln - $1.31B
MKZ: 25,343 x $39,299 = $996M
Cont: 1,997 x $54,381 = $109M
MKS: 4,647 x $43,527 = $202M

Buick - $1.45B
Regal: 18,524 x $31,796 = $589M
LaCrosse: 22,329 x $38,679 = $864M

As you can see, Buick is probably the better comparison to Lincoln currently. With only these two sedans, Buick generates more revenue than ALL of Lincoln's sedans combined. I realize Buick is "upscale" and Lincoln is allegedly "luxury" but given both operate on reskinned econo-platforms and generate similar sales and similar revenue, it is a more appropriate comparison than Cadillac. If we are talking CUVs/SUVs then I think a comparison to Cadillac can be made.

Ultimately I don't think Lincoln should try and compete in the luxury-sport market for many reasons but mainly it just wouldn't be profitable for them. Lincoln is on the right track for Lincoln. Compete between Buick, Lexus and Acura. There's plenty of money to be made there.

[hotlap]

If one were to compare the MKZ to a Cadillac, wouldn't the CT6 be more similar in class?

Even this 400 HP twin turbo. CT6 with its 404 HP, 3.0L twin-turbo with starting MSRP of $67,595 (Premium) and $87,495 (Platinum).

The CTS, ATS and V models were a big part of resurrecting Cadillac's brand image and cars like the CT6, and hopefully Escala, are the next steps in the evolution. Renowned platforms. Lincoln hasn't made similar moves to shake the retirement village cruiser with so called luxury car based on the Ford Fusion underpinnings. Buick is the better comparison

[MEDISIN]

Originally Posted by hotlap

If one were to compare the MKZ to a Cadillac, wouldn't the CT6 be more similar in class?

Mid-size FWD vs Large RWD? Perhaps the Continental would be a better comparison with the CT6 no?

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by MEDISIN

Mid-size FWD vs Large RWD? Perhaps the Continental would be a better comparison with the CT6 no?

Okay...sorry. Guess that shows I don't know Lincoln's