[RagingHawk]

Who's ready to pay 20K markup at release? Even during last year of production it will have 10K markup at dealers. It's been hyped up a lot for that purpose and will hold its value. It will beat the ZL1 in straight line speed by a bit but not meet its value because of markups. ZL1 on other hand is one of best value sports cars out, can be had for 60K after rebates.

[72MachOne99GT]

6sp 6th Gen ZL1 with all the longevity nannies turned off, vs a 13/14 GT500 with clutch protection disabled.

Are they both 11 flat cars?

How about the same scenario with DRs?

[Martinjlm]

[mlee]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

It's not jacked anymore.

...and will stay that way.

[BlaqWhole]

As an enthusiast who favors the Camaro I think the GT500 is not going to do as well as everyone hopes it will do. Will it be faster than the ZL1? It should be. How much faster and faster at what? I think that is the more appropriate question. Will it straight up destroy the ZL1? As much as people will want it to, I don't think it will. I think we'll see a good low 11 in the quarter mile out of it. Maybe 2-3 tenths faster than the ZL1. That is A10 vs A10. Equipped with the M6 I think it'll be about the same thanks to the torque management that GM overzealously threw at the ZL1. Around a track I think it'll be just about the same with the GT500 being maybe a few ticks faster. Will all that HP, the higher price tag, and the $10K minimum markups (you can count on that) justify the slight performance edge it'll have? Well that is up to the buyer. But ultimately I think there is going to be a lot of disappointed Ford fans.

The problem I think is that to me, it seems like GM prepared for the 6th Gen way ahead of time. Which is why the 6th Gen Camaros were all set on kill mode right from the start. GM built them so that they wouldn't have to touch them at all until the next Generation. And moving forward, that will give them time to do the same thing with the 7th Gen. Ford on the other hand had no time to retaliate and therefore, had to rely on their engineers developing a PP2 off the clock after hours just to be competitive. And the entire S550 needed a do-over. And I think we can say the same thing about the GT500. I doubt Ford had anything extreme planned until the ZL1 showed up and stomped everything in sight in stock trim from Hellcats to anything else within a $10K MSRP price range. So they had to figure stuff out which meant going back to the drawing board, pushing back the original release dates, returning to the drawing board, throwing more HP at it, until finally they got to the point where they had to call it quits and just put the darn thing out already. And that being the case, I doubt the GT500 is ready for battle. At best it'll slightly edge out the ZL1. What happens against the ZL1 1LE is anyone's guess. But I don't think Ford had enough time to develop that portion of the GT500 enough to beat the ZL1 1LE. And I doubt they saw the Hellcat upping their ante to 717 HP and the Redeye coming out.

So what I think will happen is we'll see a thrown together GT500 that will be sup-par. It'll beat the ZL1 in the quarter mile and maybe even around a track. It won't beat the ZL1 1LE around a track tho. And if FCA has their head in the game and threw a good tire on the Redeye, then I doubt the GT500 will beat the Redeye in a straight line.

Here is how I have it:

Straight line:

Redeye A8
GT500 A10 (by only 2-3 tenths)
ZL1 A10
Redeye M6
GT500 M6
ZL1 and ZL1 1LE M6


Track:
ZL1 1LE
ZL1 M6
ZL1 A10
GT500 M6
GT500 A10
Redeye

In the case of the ZL1s vs the GT500s I think it'll be just a driver's race when it comes to ET. But since nobody will be getting one for less than $80K at the very low end, you'd have to consider if it is worth the price. And you'd have to consider if the price with markups will drive people towards the ZL1 and Redeye or standard Hellcat.

Options and fit/finish, the Redeye and ZL1 will have more options and better finish. This is all just my humblest opinion. If I'm wrong then I'm wrong. I just think that GM made an incredible product in the ZL1. I think Ford's only option was to throw huge HP at the GT500 and hope for the best. We'll see soon enough. The biggest question will be if Ford can apply all that extra HP effectively and control it like the ZL1 does easily.

[hotlap]

Some price and performance benchmarks from Car and Driver’s test of the Redeye.

2019 DODGE CHALLENGER SRT HELLCAT REDEYE WIDEBODY

PRICE AS TESTED: $91,469 (base price: $78,745)

POWER: 797 hp @ 6300 rpm
TORQUE: 707 lb-ft @ 4500 rpm
8-speed automatic
Curb weight: 4514 lb

C/D TEST RESULTS
Zero to 60 mph: 3.7 sec
Zero to 100 mph: 7.8 sec
Zero to 170 mph: 27.7 sec
Rolling start, 5–60 mph: 4.1 sec
Top gear, 30–50 mph: 2.4 sec
Top gear, 50–70 mph: 2.5 sec
Standing ¼-mile: 11.8 sec @ 125 mph
Top speed (drag limited, mfr's claim): 203 mph
Braking, 70–0 mph: 152 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 0.95 g

Dodge claims the Redeye should run a 10.8-second quarter-mile out of the box, but the best we could do was an 11.8, despite removing a shoe to finesse the throttle. That's the same as the last automatic-equipped Challenger Hellcat Widebody we tested. Lest you forget, 797 is a larger number than 707. You don't have to be Chuck Goodyear to figure out that the dilemma lies with the tires. Even delicate throttle inputs transform the Pirelli P Zero 305/35ZR-20 tires into smoky orbs of delight, spinning halfway through second gear and hooking up just long enough to announce the two-three shift with an authoritative bark.

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...ye-first-drive

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by hotlap

Some price and performance benchmarks from Car and Driver’s test of the Redeye.

2019 DODGE CHALLENGER SRT HELLCAT REDEYE WIDEBODY

PRICE AS TESTED: $91,469 (base price: $78,745)

POWER: 797 hp @ 6300 rpm
TORQUE: 707 lb-ft @ 4500 rpm
8-speed automatic
Curb weight: 4514 lb

C/D TEST RESULTS
Zero to 60 mph: 3.7 sec
Zero to 100 mph: 7.8 sec
Zero to 170 mph: 27.7 sec
Rolling start, 5–60 mph: 4.1 sec
Top gear, 30–50 mph: 2.4 sec
Top gear, 50–70 mph: 2.5 sec
Standing ¼-mile: 11.8 sec @ 125 mph
Top speed (drag limited, mfr's claim): 203 mph
Braking, 70–0 mph: 152 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 0.95 g

Attachment 969738

So FCA did not get their act together then, lol!! The P-Zeros were no good on the 707 HP HC even on warm-ish days. So their plan of attack was to add a lot more HP and keep the same tires. Such a shame. I have no doubt in my mind that with even a good set of street tires the Redeye would be high 10s. But anyway, considering this new information and more info that GM addressed the tuning on the 19 ZL1s to eliminate the bogging, I revised my prediction. LOL!!

Straight line:

GT500 A10 (by only 2-3 tenths)
ZL1 A10
ZL1 and ZL1 1LE M6
GT500 M6
Redeye A8
Redeye M6

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by hotlap

Some price and performance benchmarks from Car and Driver’s test of the Redeye.

2019 DODGE CHALLENGER SRT HELLCAT REDEYE WIDEBODY

PRICE AS TESTED: $91,469 (base price: $78,745)

POWER: 797 hp @ 6300 rpm
TORQUE: 707 lb-ft @ 4500 rpm
8-speed automatic
Curb weight: 4514 lb

C/D TEST RESULTS
Zero to 60 mph: 3.7 sec
Zero to 100 mph: 7.8 sec
Zero to 170 mph: 27.7 sec
Rolling start, 5–60 mph: 4.1 sec
Top gear, 30–50 mph: 2.4 sec
Top gear, 50–70 mph: 2.5 sec
Standing ¼-mile: 11.8 sec @ 125 mph
Top speed (drag limited, mfr's claim): 203 mph
Braking, 70–0 mph: 152 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 0.95 g

Attachment 969738

Good try to downplay the car.

11:10s
https://www.popularmechanics.com/car...eye-drag-race/

10:80s
https://www.cars.com/articles/going-...1420703398783/

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by hotlap

Some price and performance benchmarks from Car and Driver’s test of the Redeye.

2019 DODGE CHALLENGER SRT HELLCAT REDEYE WIDEBODY

PRICE AS TESTED: $91,469 (base price: $78,745)

POWER: 797 hp @ 6300 rpm
TORQUE: 707 lb-ft @ 4500 rpm
8-speed automatic
Curb weight: 4514 lb

C/D TEST RESULTS
Zero to 60 mph: 3.7 sec
Zero to 100 mph: 7.8 sec
Zero to 170 mph: 27.7 sec
Rolling start, 5–60 mph: 4.1 sec
Top gear, 30–50 mph: 2.4 sec
Top gear, 50–70 mph: 2.5 sec
Standing ¼-mile: 11.8 sec @ 125 mph
Top speed (drag limited, mfr's claim): 203 mph
Braking, 70–0 mph: 152 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 0.95 g

Attachment 969738

Interesting spin on the tires (pun intended, even though it sucks )

Now I am trying to figure out which approach I like or dislike the most. Over-tiring a car or under-tiring a car.

Ford is putting expensive, short-lived track tires on a car that they say isn’t a track car (Mustang GT PP2).

FCA is putting expensive, but fairly reasonable tires on a car that would perform much better if it had better tires on it (Hellcat and Redeye).

I think I would be more in favor of the FCA way of doing it. If the P-Zeros are capable and reasonable in everyday driving and have sufficient wear, I would leave them on the car. When I decided to go to the strip, I would put on stickier tires of my own choosing. Since more of my time would be driving the car on the street than on the strip, the “loss of a few tenths” due to being under-tired would never be an impact for me. I imagine I am not alone in that reasoning and that Challenger owners may use similar rationale.

With Ford’s approach, they give you the tires I would probably want on this car on the track, but because of their short life expectancy in everyday driving, I’d probably prefer to have something a bit less aggressive and with more tread life for my around town driving. Since my street-driving to track ratio would fall heavy on the street-driving side, I’d replace the Cups for something reasonably aggressive, but with longer life and maybe more comfortable ride. I’ve not driven a PP2, so not sure if ride is comfy or not. I have read posts from PP2 owners indicating that they do tend to tram on ribbed and/or crowned surfaces. Had that in a Corvette for a while. Irritated the hell out of me.

Now, if Ford had just put the darn coolers on the PP2 and called it a track car, like a 1LE, I’d be a lot more forgiving. But they chose to make it a tweener...not totally track-ready (their words), but with not totally street-friendly tires. So whatever my intended purpose, I’d have to invest more $$ in the car...coolers or tires.

[Chadicus]

Originally Posted by newmoon

Good try to downplay the car.

11:10s
https://www.popularmechanics.com/car...eye-drag-race/

10:80s
https://www.cars.com/articles/going-...1420703398783/

I might be wrong but I dont see the GT500 matching a 10.80.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by newmoon

Good try to downplay the car.

11:10s
https://www.popularmechanics.com/car...eye-drag-race/

10:80s
https://www.cars.com/articles/going-...1420703398783/

I get C&D, R&T, Automobile and Hot Rod and don’t follow bellwethers of automotive journalism like Popular Mechanic and Cars.com. Good to know.

Impressive that Cars.com also had the GT PP and original Hellcat press hero runs at Great Lakes Drag Away. That’s were I go and never considered it a great track. Then again, I beat all the published times in my 16 SS there so maybe it’s not all that bad.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Interesting spin on the tires (pun intended, even though it sucks )

Now I am trying to figure out which approach I like or dislike the most. Over-tiring a car or under-tiring a car.

Ford is putting expensive, short-lived track tires on a car that they say isn’t a track car (Mustang GT PP2).

FCA is putting expensive, but fairly reasonable tires on a car that would perform much better if it had better tires on it (Hellcat and Redeye).

I think I would be more in favor of the FCA way of doing it. If the P-Zeros are capable and reasonable in everyday driving and have sufficient wear, I would leave them on the car. When I decided to go to the strip, I would put on stickier tires of my own choosing. Since more of my time would be driving the car on the street than on the strip, the “loss of a few tenths” due to being under-tired would never be an impact for me. I imagine I am not alone in that reasoning and that Challenger owners may use similar rationale.

With Ford’s approach, they give you the tires I would probably want on this car on the track, but because of their short life expectancy in everyday driving, I’d probably prefer to have something a bit less aggressive and with more tread life for my around town driving. Since my street-driving to track ratio would fall heavy on the street-driving side, I’d replace the Cups for something reasonably aggressive, but with longer life and maybe more comfortable ride. I’ve not driven a PP2, so not sure if ride is comfy or not. I have read posts from PP2 owners indicating that they do tend to tram on ribbed and/or crowned surfaces. Had that in a Corvette for a while. Irritated the hell out of me.

Now, if Ford had just put the darn coolers on the PP2 and called it a track car, like a 1LE, I’d be a lot more forgiving. But they chose to make it a tweener...not totally track-ready (their words), but with not totally street-friendly tires. So whatever my intended purpose, I’d have to invest more $$ in the car...coolers or tires.

Crazy thing is that the base Redeye Hellcat is a non-wide body with 275/40ZR20 All-Season Performance tires.

I was blown away by the +90k as the C&D tested price and went to the site to play with the build. A wide body starts at $78,745 and pushes into the mid $80s quickly. It will be interesting to see if that will be Ford’s line of attack with the GT500. Similar performance for less $$$$$

[oldman]

Originally Posted by newmoon

Good try to downplay the car.

11:10s
https://www.popularmechanics.com/car...eye-drag-race/

10:80s
https://www.cars.com/articles/going-...1420703398783/

Hard to believe the 10.8 on PZeros . Is it possible that this is a DA corrected time? Impressive either way.

[BlaqWhole]

So we have a wide range of times for the Hellcat. A couple reviews claim they couldn't do better than 11.8s with a pro driver. Two other sources claim 10.8 with a pro driver. So hopefully people will understand why I say that owning a Hellcat, racing a Hellcat, and conversing with other Hellcat owners and racers kinda gives you a unique perspective. Do I believe for one second that a 10.8 or 11.1 on those stock P-Zeros is possible? Maybe "possible" but certainly not the norm and definitely won't be for every situation. Of all the Hellcats I've seen racing at Old Bridge Raceway, not one of them were on the stock tires. They all had DRs and were all running between 10.7 and 11.2. And if you ask any Hellcat owner what the first mod should be, they'll all tell you to do tires first. And my experience with these shitty tires, I tell you I can't even enjoy driving the car because they just do not grip the road. Even when it is warm out. And I have 10K miles on them. So I find it a little hard to believe that people are getting low 11s and high 10s on them. If you doubt me, then drive one and let me know what you think.

Anyway, when the GT500 finally makes it out is when we'll see exactly what all these cars can do when pitted against each other same day same track and with a good driver. I hope we get to see all of them. Hellcat, Redeye, Demon (if possible), ZL1, ZL1 1LE, GT500, GT350R in one mash up that covers the drag strip and the track. Knowing Ford tho, I doubt they'll allow this. My reasoning is that the GT500 was a rush job that won't do what people expect it to do.