[MightyBobo]

Originally Posted by Wyzz Kydd

Stop being obtuse and deceptive.

Nothing I said was deceptive or obtuse, and simply saying I'm being that way does not make it true.

Saying "wokeism" unironically, or this HILARIOUSLY obtuse and whiney post, however, is something that clearly shows we need not take anything you say seriously. Cope harder.

[David Gordon]

I have been in other countries where the pollution was really terrible. I live in Texas so I am used to seeing clear skies.
I also work in the Oilfield at least for the last 42 years. So you kinda see my point of not wanting to see electric cars. I remember Cell phones practically ruining the USA.
Look now everyone holding their phones to their ears.
I love the sound of a good V-8 rumble.

[Wyzz Kydd]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

The thing that has me shaking my head is the number of people whose opinions seem to project that the switch from ICE to EV will happen overnight and will be mandated by law.

Of course the government would NEVER pass laws that mandate things like that.

https://www.theclimategroup.org/our-...group-responds

BTW, those legally binding standards require a 49 mpg fleet average by 2026.


I'm sure CAFE regs have nothing at all to do with the increase in EVs.

[MightyBobo]

Originally Posted by David Gordon

I have been in other countries where the pollution was really terrible. I live in Texas so I am used to seeing clear skies.
I also work in the Oilfield at least for the last 42 years. So you kinda see my point of not wanting to see electric cars. I remember Cell phones practically ruining the USA.
Look now everyone holding their phones to their ears.
I love the sound of a good V-8 rumble.

Nobody is taking your car away. You can hold onto it as long as you'd like. Enjoy it, as I will enjoy mine. And I'll have my EV on the side so I can pull out my rumbly V8 and enjoy it when I'd like.

Kids identifying floppy disks as "the save icon", or being completely confused as to how a rotary phone works, are adorable. But cell phones have not ruined the USA any more than craft beer has ruined the beer industry, or rock and roll ruining music. Times simply change. You can either move with it, or dig your heels in and be left behind...or be dragged along kicking and screaming, I suppose.

You're holding on to an emotion that simply isn't shared by the majority of drivers on the road. MOST people just expect their vehicle to get them from A to B, as reliably as possible. They care not about any V8 rumbles or tight switch-backs to dive into, or similar. Just be happy nobody intends to kick in your front door and steal your damn car.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by David Gordon

I have been in other countries where the pollution was really terrible. I live in Texas so I am used to seeing clear skies.
I also work in the Oilfield at least for the last 42 years. So you kinda see my point of not wanting to see electric cars. I remember Cell phones practically ruining the USA.
Look now everyone holding their phones to their ears.
I love the sound of a good V-8 rumble.

So, from your experience in Texas and visiting a few other countries you now have sufficient data to declare the US as the most emission free? Okay.

Had you lived in Gary, Indiana and traveled to any country in Scandinavia you’d probably have a much different take on it.

By the way, California is far and away the state that sees the most electric vehicle sales. Know which state is second? Hint… you live in it. Should also note that the oil industry is getting involved in setting up EV charging stations. I was at the press conference last week in Long Beach where Shell announced their plans.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Wyzz Kydd

Of course the government would NEVER pass laws that mandate things like that.

https://www.theclimategroup.org/our-...group-responds

BTW, those legally binding standards require a 49 mpg fleet average by 2026.


I'm sure CAFE regs have nothing at all to do with the increase in EVs.

The government passes regulations of emissions. They have not passed regulations eliminating ICE vehicles. It is very much not likely that any automaker can meet those standards without offering some electric vehicles, but by no means do they have to produce and sell only electric vehicles. Those are choices automakers make for themselves. And most of the automakers who have made those decisions did so BEFORE the 2020 elections. In other words before Biden took office and before Democrats held the Senate. They made the decisions to emphasize electric vehicles long before the Biden Administration strengthened emissions regulations. That’s why they aren’t fighting the Biden emissions plan. The plans they already made to go electric will over-perform the new regulations.

But what about California banning ICE cars after 2035? Well, a couple things there…

• it is an attempt to ban sales of new cars with internal combustion engines
• it is an executive order from the governor’s office. The EO directs the regulatory agencies in California to come back with a plan to ban internal combustion engines in new car sales. It’s not a law, it’s a directive to study and develop a plan.
• the executive branch (governor) does not make law, the legislature makes law. Unless and until the California Legislature proposes and votes to approve a law to ban ICE new vehicle sales, there is no ban.

[MightyBobo]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

The government passes regulations of emissions. They have not passed regulations eliminating ICE vehicles. It is very much not likely that any automaker can meet those standards without offering some electric vehicles, but by no means do they have to produce and sell only electric vehicles. Those are choices automakers make for themselves. And most of the automakers who have made those decisions did so BEFORE the 2020 elections. In other words before Biden took office and before Democrats held the Senate. They made the decisions to emphasize electric vehicles long before the Biden Administration strengthened emissions regulations. That’s why they aren’t fighting the Biden emissions plan. The plans they already made to go electric will over-perform the new regulations.

But what about California banning ICE cars after 2035? Well, a couple things there…

• it is an attempt to ban sales of new cars with internal combustion engines
• it is an executive order from the governor’s office. The EO directs the regulatory agencies in California to come back with a plan to ban internal combustion engines in new car sales. It’s not a law, it’s a directive to study and develop a plan.
• the executive branch (governor) does not make law, the legislature makes law. Unless and until the California Legislature proposes and votes to approve a law to ban ICE new vehicle sales, there is no ban.

I'm glad you said something because my initial response to his obtuse and deceptive post was far less kind. I just deleted it.

[ChevyRules]

Originally Posted by Wyzz Kydd

Of course the government would NEVER pass laws that mandate things like that.

https://www.theclimategroup.org/our-...group-responds

BTW, those legally binding standards require a 49 mpg fleet average by 2026.


I'm sure CAFE regs have nothing at all to do with the increase in EVs.

And on top of Martin said, they made these commitments to EV’s even after Trump relaxed the CAFE fuel economy regulations.

Stop politicizing this. Both sides need to stop. I can’t stand society now that every point is now political. It ruins conversations. I can’t even go flying with a co workers and saying, “ man I really enjoyed that overnight in XXX” without them interjecting, “ yeah I used to enjoy that place too before the Dems/gop ruined it!” Was in a hotel elevator when guests asked if I ever been to California and I replied have not, but look forward to one day cause I hear it can be quite scenic. Their immediate reaction was crack political points.

Getting sick and tired of it.

[TXCSSU]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

There is so much truth here. Politicizing EV on either side of the political spectrum is just weird and wrong. I'm glad smartphones weren't politicized when iPhone first came on the scene. "What do you mean there's no number buttons?" "If it doesn't flip I don't have a use for it". "You know the government is using those things to track you, right?" Ok, that last one is true, but you get my point.



Always good to hear detailed findings and impressions from someone living in both worlds. Takes down a lot of the uninformed bias without pollyanna white-washing from the perspective of one being "all-in".


The thing that has me shaking my head is the number of people whose opinions seem to project that the switch from ICE to EV will happen overnight and will be mandated by law. If every car manufacturer said today that they were going to go 100% BEV, it would still take 2 or 3 decades to even get close. GM said in 2020 that they would be all zero emission by 2035. That's 15 years and they have been the most aggressive. In the meantime they have introduced a few new ICE vehicle platforms (Corvette, Canyon/Colorado).

On the opposite end of the logic meter would be the people that look at the current EV offerings and assume that there will never be an EV that meets their needs. That's part of what's going to take so long for the transition to happen. The first wave of EVs were basically proof of concept. Small, short-range devoid o' features machines that only early adopters would love. They were small and had short range to try to keep the costs down. Costs, not price.

Second wave (pronounced Tesla) focused on pseudo-luxury vehicles aimed at thin segments of the market where buyers are less price sensitive and looking for the latest cool thing. Tesla nailed that. Porsche and Lucid are capitalizing on this too.

Now the third wave is currently focused on vehicles that are very popular and in segments where consumers are willing to spend for options and where they can be made and sold with some level of profit (SUV / CUV / Pickup). This is driving the volume growth of EVs. EV sales are up more than 100% year to year because there are more options in the types of vehicles people buy by the hundreds of thousands. Mustang Mach E is a great example, as are the slew of EV pickups that are starting to come up for production launch.

The fourth wave will start to provide more mainstream vehicles for everyday buyers who want to replace their everyday cars. Blazer EV and Equinox EV will likely be the stars of this wave of EVs.

The fifth wave will be where the different automakers start to really flex their muscles and introduce more emotional products that identify their brands. The Dodge EVs will fit nicely in this wave of vehicles, along with Cadillac sedans to replace CT4/5 and whatever Chevrolet launches (coupe or sedan). Eventually there will be an electric (or fuel cell) version in every category of vehicle. Even then, there will still be some ICE vehicles left standing. There are still some use cases where EVs don't yet make the best proposition. That's why the transition will not be overnight. It will be relatively fast, but it won't be complete for several decades. At some point our great-grandkids will be like "yeah this one’s a classic...inherited it from my great-grandpa. Wanna see something cool? Open the frunk".

I love the discussions, but hate the hysteria and the hyperbole. I figure in about 10 or so years, we're going to see improvements in the technology and the holdouts will come around. Several years ago households that owned at least 1 computer was pretty rare, making a phone call from a cell phone to ask a loved one if a specific item was needed from a grocery store was more expensive than the item itself. Change happens, people cope and get over it. What's going to be funny is that we'll hopefully have these forums around that will allow us to look back and look at all of the absurdities.

Originally Posted by David Gordon

I have been in other countries where the pollution was really terrible. I live in Texas so I am used to seeing clear skies.
I also work in the Oilfield at least for the last 42 years. So you kinda see my point of not wanting to see electric cars. I remember Cell phones practically ruining the USA.
Look now everyone holding their phones to their ears.
I love the sound of a good V-8 rumble.

I drove through central Texas from the Dallas/Fort Worth area to enjoy some time at Big Bend National Park. Some of the towns I drove through, I can't even imagine how the residents of those towns don't have a lower death rate than the rest of the country. The air was so disgusting that even turning on my recirculate function couldn't keep out the most horrific smelling oil refinery smells that I've ever smelled.

[5.M0NSTER]

Originally Posted by Wyzz Kydd

I majored in economics so no, I’m not wasting my time trying to explain something to someone who’s determined NOT to get it.

I may not have a degree in Econ. But I do have an advanced degree in Engineering, which I’m actively using to develop this “woke” technology in the automotive industry. You know, the technology driving the future of these cars and powering the entire automotive segment of the economy from OEs to Tier 3s.

But what do any of us know about economies of scale, energy efficiency, global regulations, carbon, CO2 or NOx emissions and their effect on the environment and human health. It’s all woke BS anyway. Why would we care certain market regions have already outlawed IC starting in 2035 or even earlier. And why would GM, Ford and all the others shift to this new tech? It’s clearly not for economic gain! Why should technologies advance when we can just move backwards.

[redcoats1976]

im happy with my V6,and hoping it will last the rest of my driving days.but i wouldnt turn away a 2 door electric camaro if i was given one.would even consider renting one to see if was cool or uncool.

[Number 3]

It will be political simply because …well…. The internet.

I can assure you that the far bigger reason for converting to EVs more than California or democrats or martians is simply stock price and getting shareholder value.

Tesla was barely profitable up until only a few years ago and what profit they made was selling credits to other OEMs. But now slightly profitable actually selling cars their market cap is over a $789 BILLION. GM, making billions a year like money machine is worth a paltry $55 BILLION.

GM will likely sell fewer cars at even bigger profit and hopefully gate a HUGE stock price jump.

The government could easily force us to fix this problem. If tomorrow they made it illegal to drive a car older than 5 years old eliminating several hundred million cars that pollute far more we would immediately be better off than a 25 plus year conversion to EVs. They could even do what Japan has done for years by adding inspections and fees making it so expensive to drive a 3 year old car that it actually becomes cheaper to just buy a new car. They won’t. What they will do is create requirements that cause industry to fix it.

Many OEMs have stooped ICE development. Why? To meet emissions requirements around the world, not just in the US, will only happen with EVs. ICE improvement is done with tiny improvements possible. The 2.0t in my wife’s XT4 has a very slick indexing camshaft (look it up, very cool). It has full, partial and no lift lobes. I’ve heard it was $800 cost for about 1/2 mpg.

EVs, short of the vroom vroom sound are simply going to be the better product for most customers. And all those people that used to work on ICE will be working on even better, lower cost, faster charging EVs. Far better EVs are coming.

And 20 years from now they will be so much better it will be like trying to suggest your old dial phone was better than an iPhone 13 because you liked the feel of the dial and that, click click click sound when you let go.

[redcoats1976]

Originally Posted by Number 3

It will be political simply because …well…. The internet.

I can assure you that the far bigger reason for converting to EVs more than California or democrats or martians is simply stock price and getting shareholder value.

Tesla was barely profitable up until only a few years ago and what profit they made was selling credits to other OEMs. But now slightly profitable actually selling cars their market cap is over a $789 BILLION. GM, making billions a year like money machine is worth a paltry $55 BILLION.

GM will likely sell fewer cars at even bigger profit and hopefully gate a HUGE stock price jump.

The government could easily force us to fix this problem. If tomorrow they made it illegal to drive a car older than 5 years old eliminating several hundred million cars that pollute far more we would immediately be better off than a 25 plus year conversion to EVs. They could even do what Japan has done for years by adding inspections and fees making it so expensive to drive a 3 year old car that it actually becomes cheaper to just buy a new car. They won’t. What they will do is create requirements that cause industry to fix it.

Many OEMs have stooped ICE development. Why? To meet emissions requirements around the world, not just in the US, will only happen with EVs. ICE improvement is done with tiny improvements possible. The 2.0t in my wife’s XT4 has a very slick indexing camshaft (look it up, very cool). It has full, partial and no lift lobes. I’ve heard it was $800 cost for about 1/2 mpg.

EVs, short of the vroom vroom sound are simply going to be the better product for most customers. And all those people that used to work on ICE will be working on even better, lower cost, faster charging EVs. Far better EVs are coming.

And 20 years from now they will be so much better it will be like trying to suggest your old dial phone was better than an iPhone 13 because you liked the feel of the dial and that, click click click sound when you let go.

yeah,that would be fair and better for the environment to force people with cars with less than 100k miles on them to junk them and melt them into scrap.my 2015 camaro V6 is stock,gets decent mileage,looks and drives like new.i should go into debt and be forced into buying something i dont need just because thats the way they do it in japan?living on social security means i wont be buying a new car every three years,so the government gets what it really wants,the masses riding bicycles.

[Wyzz Kydd]

I don’t believe there is such a thing as woke technology. Tech is tech. Only people are stupid enough to be woke.

I get it though, some people believe we need to save the earth from ‘climate change’ snicker, so we get EVs.

It’s a shame the mass psychosis of a relatively small number of people means the rest of us have to deal with CAFE standards, and Commifornia trying to outlaw the ICE, but what are you going to do? You can’t fix stupid, you can only laugh.