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Old 07-16-2018, 09:00 PM   #141
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Thanks Jim.

If that doesn’t prove once and for all that CAFE is a complete joke, nothing will. Buying “credits”? Yep, it’s all about efficiency and the environment.
If it were not for credits, we’d all be driving Corollas and Fiestas. The alternative is “meet the standard or don’t sell vehicles”.
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Old 07-16-2018, 09:19 PM   #142
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If that doesn’t prove once and for all that CAFE is a complete joke, nothing will. Buying “credits”? Yep, it’s all about efficiency and the environment.
I feel the theory of CAFE is noble, but the method in which it's practiced is shameful.
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Old 07-16-2018, 09:58 PM   #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Royal Tiger View Post
Thanks Jim.

If that doesn’t prove once and for all that CAFE is a complete joke, nothing will. Buying “credits”? Yep, it’s all about efficiency and the environment.
It was never about the environment. CAFE was created in response to the oil crisis of the 70s. The intent was to improve the net fuel economy of the entire American vehicle fleet. What one individual model, or company, gets doesn't matter because its the net consumption of tens of millions of cars on a daily basis that needed to be addressed.

By letting automakers accumulate and sell credits, it creates incentive for going above and beyond the standard. And there isn't really anything to be gained by not allowing it. The over achievers would slack off, while the ones that were buying credits have to dump money into R&D or shift their product mix to something more efficient. In the end, they still end up averaging the same thing but with less variety along every Dealership Alley.

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I feel the theory of CAFE is noble, but the method in which it's practiced is shameful.
As Bob Lutz likes to say ... CAFE is like fighting obesity by restricting pant size.
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Originally Posted by FbodFather
My sister's dentist's brother's cousin's housekeeper's dog-breeder's nephew sells coffee filters to the company that provides coffee to General Motors......
........and HE WOULD KNOW!!!!
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Old 07-17-2018, 06:36 AM   #144
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My point is it has become so watered down and full of loopholes and money changing hands like everything else politicians touch. Bob Lutz is right. Very smart guy. I love his editorial in the one car mag every month. He doesn’t pull punches.
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Old 07-17-2018, 07:01 AM   #145
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My point is it has become so watered down and full of loopholes and money changing hands like everything else politicians touch. Bob Lutz is right. Very smart guy. I love his editorial in the one car mag every month. He doesn’t pull punches.
No argument there. It is just my opinion that it is good for people who like to drive cars and people who want or need trucks that it is not a “one size fits all” set of regulations. It is far from perfect, but given where it started....

When laws are made governing technologies that the leaders who make the laws don’t understand and governing businesses the leaders don’t understand, bad things can happen.

On the surface, setting targets for average fuel economy makes sense. Until you start to realize that different vehicle types exist for a reason and the laws of physics don’t change and will always apply. The various credits have been added like a patchwork quilt to address over-reach in the laws as originally put in place.

For giggles and grins, let’s look at California....They had a very real smog problem. I get it. Something needed to be done. So California MANDATED that every automaker selling vehicles in California had to have 10% of their sales be electric vehicles. This was the original ZEV Mandate. ZEV is Zero Emissions Vehicle. One problem....nobody had developed or produced a commercially viable electric vehicle by the time of the first ZEV Mandate. Ignore for a minute the fact that automakers can’t force consumers to BUY 10% EV, even if they could produce them and let’s just fast forward past the whole GM EV1 thing and land on some of the “adjustments” to the original ZEV Mandate.

Today we have classifications of vehicles from ZEV (EVs and Fuel Cells) to Partial Zero Emissions Vehicle’s (PZEV) which includes hybrids like Prius that can drive small parts of their drive cycle with the engine off and Advanced Technology PZEV (AT-PZEV) which includes Chevrolet Volt and some Plug-in Hybrids that can drive significant parts of their drive cycle with the engine off, thus partial zero. We also have Low Emissions Vehicles, Ultra Low Emissions Vehicles and Super Ultra Low Emissions Vehicles (LEV, ULEV, and SULEV if you’re keeping up).

Each one of these alphabet soup classifications are worth varying amounts of credit to the automakers. Some ZEV vehicles, Fuel Cells like the Honda Clarity FC, the Toyota Mirai, and the Hyundai Tucson FC count as much as 5 vehicles towards credits. So, over-simplifying, for every Mirai Toyota leases (you can’t BUY one) Toyota could sell 5 more Tundras. For every Chevrolet Bolt EV GM sells in California or the 17 states that abide by California rules, they’d get credit for 3 vehicles and could sell 3 more Suburbans. Or Camaros. That credit ratio reduces over time to give automakers incentive to make fuel cells and EVs earlier more than later. Each of the other classifications would receive fewer credits than the ZEV or AT-PZEV vehicles, and all would ramp down over time. So that’s how the original “everybody has to sell 10% EVs, even though nobody knows how to make one yet” got morphed into something way more complicated, but that actually makes more sense and allows for automakers leeway to make vehicles people actually want to buy.

And yes, Bob is right. We’re restricting pants sizes. But at least now you can still get jeans, khakis, and pleats or no pleats.
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Last edited by Martinjlm; 07-17-2018 at 07:11 AM.
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Old 07-17-2018, 11:13 AM   #146
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For fun, here is an old CAFE thread...

https://www.camaro6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=287274
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Old 07-17-2018, 11:41 AM   #147
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For fun, here is an old CAFE thread...

https://www.camaro6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=287274
Nice! I subscribed to it in the event it actually grows legs. DGthe3’s link is awesome.
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Old 07-17-2018, 01:35 PM   #148
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Nice! I subscribed to it in the event it actually grows legs. DGthe3’s link is awesome.
You mean Camaro-Dreamers link? I merely quoted him.
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Originally Posted by FbodFather
My sister's dentist's brother's cousin's housekeeper's dog-breeder's nephew sells coffee filters to the company that provides coffee to General Motors......
........and HE WOULD KNOW!!!!
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Old 07-17-2018, 06:22 PM   #149
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It was never about the environment. CAFE was created in response to the oil crisis of the 70s.
I think we were supposed to be out of oil by now
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Old 07-17-2018, 08:05 PM   #150
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I think we were supposed to be out of oil by now
At least 20 years now if you listened to the “experts”. Those “experts” now sell “carbon credits” for the next man made panic for profit: global warming.
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Old 07-17-2018, 09:00 PM   #151
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I think we were supposed to be out of oil by now
Only according to people who didn't understand what 'recoverable reserves' are (they are mostly dependant on the price of oil, not the availability of it). Or who believed that no new technology or innovation would make it possible to extract oil that was previously inaccessible (which is different proceeding as though technology will not magically save the day). The world will never run out of oil. But it can become so expensive to extract that its no longer viable as a fuel. And that cost doesn't have to be money, it could very well be energy. A barrel of oil has nearly 6 million BTUs of energy. If getting that barrel of oil out of the ground and refined into gasoline and diesel takes 6.1 million BTUs of energy (from any combination of sources), you're better off not extracting the oil in the first place.

But back to what you quoted. The issue in the oil crisis wasn't that the wells were drying up. Iran and other OPEC nations simply reduced their production. The reasons differed from 73 to 79, but the end result was pretty much the same either way. CAFE was intended to at least reduce America's dependence on these foreign sources of oil, specifically for gasoline (which middle east crude is particularly good for, in contrast to say Canadian tar sands which are better suited for industrial uses). It wasn't the only thing done, because complex problems require complex solutions. But that is the background, to the best of my knowledge.
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Originally Posted by FbodFather
My sister's dentist's brother's cousin's housekeeper's dog-breeder's nephew sells coffee filters to the company that provides coffee to General Motors......
........and HE WOULD KNOW!!!!
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Old 07-17-2018, 09:34 PM   #152
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At least 20 years now if you listened to the “experts”. Those “experts” now sell “carbon credits” for the next man made panic for profit: global warming.
You seem to be misinformed about what it means to be an expert, and who sells the credits in a cap and trade style system. For one thing, its incredibly difficult to be an expert in more than one field. Such as ... being an expert in the extraction of oil and being an expert in environmental macroeconomics.

As an example, Bill Nye is not an expert on climate change. Or space exploration. Or evolution. Or whatever else CNN has him talking about when they call him up. He is pretty knowledgeable in mechanical engineering, though given that he hasn't worked for Boeing in around 30 years I'm not sure if I'd even consider him an expert in that anymore. However, he IS an expert in science communication. He knows how to break subjects down to such a degree that children or even cable news watchers can understand. But that does not make him an expert in the subjects he is talking about.


I'm done with this thread now. I've taken it too far off topic as is, not going to push it further.
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Originally Posted by FbodFather
My sister's dentist's brother's cousin's housekeeper's dog-breeder's nephew sells coffee filters to the company that provides coffee to General Motors......
........and HE WOULD KNOW!!!!
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Old 07-18-2018, 06:54 AM   #153
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You seem to be misinformed about what it means to be an expert, and who sells the credits in a cap and trade style system. For one thing, its incredibly difficult to be an expert in more than one field. Such as ... being an expert in the extraction of oil and being an expert in environmental macroeconomics.

As an example, Bill Nye is not an expert on climate change. Or space exploration. Or evolution. Or whatever else CNN has him talking about when they call him up. He is pretty knowledgeable in mechanical engineering, though given that he hasn't worked for Boeing in around 30 years I'm not sure if I'd even consider him an expert in that anymore. However, he IS an expert in science communication. He knows how to break subjects down to such a degree that children or even cable news watchers can understand. But that does not make him an expert in the subjects he is talking about.


I'm done with this thread now. I've taken it too far off topic as is, not going to push it further.
You completely missed the point. My comment was to Jimmy bringing up how we were supposed to be out of oil after people were making money fueling the panic that fossil fuels would be gone by 1999, and now we have a similar panic over so called global warming and “carbon credits”.
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Old 07-18-2018, 12:29 PM   #154
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You completely missed the point. My comment was to Jimmy bringing up how we were supposed to be out of oil after people were making money fueling the panic that fossil fuels would be gone by 1999, and now we have a similar panic over so called global warming and “carbon credits”.
I understood your point. I vividly remember (~1980) being taught that there was a 20 year supply of oil. The world was also going into a second ice age that would impact the food supply. The world would be forced into "life boat" economics where people would be left to die. ...unless we acted immediately!
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