[13vertss]

Originally Posted by oldman

Hard to believe the 10.8 on PZeros . Is it possible that this is a DA corrected time? Impressive either way.

That was the widebody with 305 on it, and temps were in the 40’s

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Interesting spin on the tires (pun intended, even though it sucks )

Now I am trying to figure out which approach I like or dislike the most. Over-tiring a car or under-tiring a car.

Ford is putting expensive, short-lived track tires on a car that they say isn’t a track car (Mustang GT PP2).

FCA is putting expensive, but fairly reasonable tires on a car that would perform much better if it had better tires on it (Hellcat and Redeye).

I think I would be more in favor of the FCA way of doing it. If the P-Zeros are capable and reasonable in everyday driving and have sufficient wear, I would leave them on the car. When I decided to go to the strip, I would put on stickier tires of my own choosing. Since more of my time would be driving the car on the street than on the strip, the “loss of a few tenths” due to being under-tired would never be an impact for me. I imagine I am not alone in that reasoning and that Challenger owners may use similar rationale.

With Ford’s approach, they give you the tires I would probably want on this car on the track, but because of their short life expectancy in everyday driving, I’d probably prefer to have something a bit less aggressive and with more tread life for my around town driving. Since my street-driving to track ratio would fall heavy on the street-driving side, I’d replace the Cups for something reasonably aggressive, but with longer life and maybe more comfortable ride. I’ve not driven a PP2, so not sure if ride is comfy or not. I have read posts from PP2 owners indicating that they do tend to tram on ribbed and/or crowned surfaces. Had that in a Corvette for a while. Irritated the hell out of me.

Now, if Ford had just put the darn coolers on the PP2 and called it a track car, like a 1LE, I’d be a lot more forgiving. But they chose to make it a tweener...not totally track-ready (their words), but with not totally street-friendly tires. So whatever my intended purpose, I’d have to invest more $$ in the car...coolers or tires.

The cool thing is that now we're starting to see exactly why the SS and SS 1LE were as expensive as they were. When people were complaining that the dealerships would not come down on the price and that the GT was heavily discounted, well we can see why. Chevy did things the right way from the start and walked away from it. They built the 6th Gen SS and ZL1 with enough performance that they did not have to do any revisions. They gave them the right tires, the right suspension, the right tuning, proper cooling, and then upped the ante with the 1LE package. Meanwhile Ford had to upgrade the GT, throw in an additional PP2 package, went skimpy on the coolers, and all after only 3 MYs of the S550. Dodge built the Hellcat and Redeye with a killer engine but,as we saw, the superchargers went bus for the 15 and 16 MYs and the tires were shit. Then they upgraded the blowers for 17 but kept the shit tires which are soo iffy that times range by an entire second between testers. And instead of addressing the tires, they threw 90 more HP at it and it still has the same issues.

So this is why I'm a GM fanatic. GM builds things the right way from the start and then moves on to the next project. They don't skimp out on tires, coolers, suspension, or anything. People bitch and moan about price and this and that, but then buy something else and mod it and wipe out their warranty and end up with some that performs on the level of a stock SS or ZL1 but with no warranty if it does even perform on the same level.

GM: Do it right the first time. Leave it alone. Tell people that they can race the car and if they have any issue then GM will cover it free of charge no questions asked. Move on to the next project.

Ford: Do it. Offer bits and pieces that have to be tailored. Some options cannot be combined with other options. Make people choose between tech and performance. Halfway thru the model year re-do it but skimp out on something (like coolers). Add a footnote that the car isn't built for racing although it has racing tires on it. Threaten to void the warranty if the vehicle is raced while there is another vehicle in the adjacent lane (definition of "racing") and advise people not to "race" the car.

FCA: Do it. Throw the cheapest tires on it that weren't even good on bone stock LS3 Camaros. Throw more HP at it. Keep the tires. Throw more HP at it again. Keep the same tires except make them wider. Have magazines range in ET by 1 full second.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by 13vertss

That was the widebody with 305 on it, and temps were in the 40’s

My 275s with a standard 707HP Hellcat spin at 40 degrees while I'm just trying to ease the car outta my driveway...

[Chadicus]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

My 275s with a standard 707HP Hellcat spin at 40 degrees while I'm just trying to ease the car outta my driveway...

I'm sure Dodge (FCA) has a contract with Pirelli to provide tires on all their cars and they may not have the agility or financial reason to change the tire on the Hellcat.

Where I live I wouldn't mind the 275 all seasons. I would absolutely buy drag radials for summer and strip then switch to all seasons for driving around town. I dont mind changing tires.

[72MachOne99GT]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

So what I think will happen is we'll see a thrown together GT500 that will be sup-par. It'll beat the ZL1 in the quarter mile and maybe even around a track. It won't beat the ZL1 1LE around a track tho. And if FCA has their head in the game and threw a good tire on the Redeye, then I doubt the GT500 will beat the Redeye in a straight line.

Here is how I have it:

Straight line:

Redeye A8
GT500 A10 (by only 2-3 tenths)
ZL1 A10
Redeye M6
GT500 M6
ZL1 and ZL1 1LE M6


Track:
ZL1 1LE
ZL1 M6
ZL1 A10
GT500 M6
GT500 A10
Redeye

In the case of the ZL1s vs the GT500s I think it'll be just a driver's race when it comes to ET. But since nobody will be getting one for less than $80K at the very low end, you'd have to consider if it is worth the price.

Hopefully I can find this quote next year. Unlikely, but quoted nonetheless.

Also, I’ll be very surprised if the Manual Redeye is faster than anything...

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by 72MachOne99GT

Hopefully I can find this quote next year. Unlikely, but quoted nonetheless.

Also, I’ll be very surprised if the Manual Redeye is faster than anything...

Are you implying that I'll edit or delete my post? Have I done that yet? I don't have much faith in the upcoming GT500. And I doubt that it'll do what all the Ford guys want it to do. Even if it does, it'll be soo expensive and will have enough markups that you'll have to wonder if the performance will be worth the price. It'll likely be the worst bang for the buck available. It's looking like a rush job that was thrown together but we'll see.

[FastCarFanBoy]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

It's looking like a rush job that was thrown together but we'll see.

Which part looks rushed exactly?

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy

Which part looks rushed exactly?

The entire thing. To me it seems that Ford underestimated what it would take to actually beat the ZL1 and ZL1 1LE. So they had to go back to the drawing board and push the release back. Which means they didn't have enough time to fully develop it. AT this point I still doubt they had enough time but they had to pretty much go ahead and get it out already. So it seems like the entire thing was rushed. And we've already seen that Ford didn't have all their ducks in a row with the S550 when they first put it out. Then trying to re-do the entire car, having to come up with the PP2 which they had to rely on their engineers working off the clock to do for them just for it to be half-assed without coolers, having all the mechanical problems with the GT350(R) that needed to be addressed, and then putting out the Bullitt. It all seems like they spread themselves way to thin. And each trim has suffered because of it. So even if the GT500 does manage to pull off a win in every performance category or even one then we'll still have to wonder about longevity, engine problems, quality, and if it is good for one lap on a track or two or consistent runs, and everything else. I'm not too confident in Ford's ability to make a product of good quality and on the performance level of the ZL1 in such a short amount of time and with their track record this Gen and with all they had going on while they were developing the GT500.

[Chadicus]

Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy

Which part looks rushed exactly?

The entire 550 platform has felt rushed. Even now, you have tranny issues on both the A10 and the MT82, the Voodoo is consuming way too much oil, the 5.0 sounds like a 1940s typewriter, the PP2 has no coolers but comes with Cup 2s....

Having said all that the 500 has been in development for a while now. Gen 7 cars are right around the corner. What is the benchmark for the GT500? The ZL1? ZLE? Hellcat? Or something even beyond that? Because if Fords benchmark is the Hellcat or ZL1 then they are 2 years late minimum releasing it.

[13vertss]

Originally Posted by Chadicus

The entire 550 platform has felt rushed. Even now, you have tranny issues on both the A10 and the MT82, the Voodoo is consuming way too much oil, the 5.0 sounds like a 1940s typewriter, the PP2 has no coolers but comes with Cup 2s....

Having said all that the 500 has been in development for a while now. Gen 7 cars are right around the corner. What is the benchmark for the GT500? The ZL1? ZLE? Hellcat? Or something even beyond that? Because if Fords benchmark is the Hellcat or ZL1 then they are 2 years late minimum releasing it.

By the time the GT500 hits dealer lots, the zl1 with be 3 years old, so they have a lot of time to get the gt500 right. If it doesn’t have the WOW factor and barely beats the zl1! IMHO, it’s a fail. So they better be bringing it.

[Chadicus]

Originally Posted by 13vertss

By the time the GT500 hits dealer lots, the zl1 with be 3 years old, so they have a lot of time to get the gt500 right. If it doesn’t have the WOW factor and barely beats the zl1! IMHO, it’s a fail. So they better be bringing it.

Agreed. It better be just about flawless.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by 13vertss

By the time the GT500 hits dealer lots, the zl1 with be 3 years old, so they have a lot of time to get the gt500 right. If it doesn’t have the WOW factor and barely beats the zl1! IMHO, it’s a fail. So they better be bringing it.

When the GT500 arrives in 2020 the ZL1 will be in its fourth year and the Redeye its second. With the power, platform and time taken, the base GT500 needs to beat the base ZL1 on a road course for more than three laps and match a Redeye on the drag stripe. A “R” version to challenge the ZL1 1LE isn’t necessary IMO because that isn’t Ford’s strength.

Anything less will be a fail. Especially since the fortunate few buyers will pay C7 Z06 in 3LZ top trim level prices while the new mid engine C8 is grabbing headlines

[Martinjlm]

FWIW, barring unforeseen circumstances, I expect to attend the January 14th press conference where the GT500 will be unveiled.

[BlaqWhole]

I wouldn't say Ford had 3-4 years to develop the GT500. I think it was more like a year and a half at this point. Ford didn't foresee anything like the ZL1 coming and I believe they were completely fine with keeping the GT350 and GT350R around. In fact I bet they thought the Shelbys would beat anything GM was going to put out. Then GM slapped them with the SS 1LE, the ZL1, and the ZL1 1LE. That had them like "oh shit" and they started scrambling to get something out that can beat the ZL1. On top of trying to fix the issues with the Shelbys, re-do the GT, build the PP2 and then put out the Bullitt I don't think they had 3-4 years to work on the GT500. At least not the entire time. So I think we'll see an unfinished unrefined product that will cost much more than a ZL1 but might, just might, beat it at something. What that something is could be anyone's guess.