They Are FINALLY Starting To Admit It

[Biergut]

What most of us have known for a long time...

https://www.autoblog.com/2019/03/24/...edium=facebook

[Shoupaloop]

Even the wheels aren't that much cleaner, TBH. The best part may be no lot rot if it rains or is humid.

[Z/28Dan]

They...Meaning a tech rep from Porsche in Australia.

[joelster]

What is the weight difference in the rotors? Iron vs Carbon?

[kramard]

Originally Posted by joelster

What is the weight difference in the rotors? Iron vs Carbon?

I’m so happy with the iron discs from the zl1. I loved them on my z/28 and I love them on my zl1. Brake pad wear instantly better on track, modulation is better and I’d say they have a more consistent stopping power.

The weight difference is fairly big - I recall 12.5 lbs a corner increase to replace the ccbs with steel discs. That said as a % difference of our cars weight it’s not detectibale in any track data I collected.

I’m was not going to pay the cost of ccb rotors as a consumable. No way are they worth 3x - 4x to replace pads and rotors per axle. They do look nice and dust a lot less and I do believe they’d last the life of the car if they arent tracked.

[1970judge]

The fact this even needs to be discussed is mind boggling to me, but, coming from the average Porsche owner..im not surprised.

The real issue here is originally, the statement was they last Xtimes longer than steels..which is true but the Brembo rep originally told them FAR too long of an interval (track use). So A) someone, somewhere at Brembo is getting his face smashed in by his employer and by Porsche. B) the misunderstanding here is yes, they will certainly last 100,000 miles of street driving. YES, they ARE better than steel brakes (in some cases. STEEL setups have come a looong way, as many will note here!!), but NO they certainly will not last forever on the track. They degrade just like any other rotor/pad combo, but at a much higher cost and in a different way..adding cost. So, pay to play..for some people, that extra unsprung weight matters, consistent braking performance matters, and cost is not a factor. For a lot of people here and other places, they'll never be at 10/10ths where it would matter, and todays steel setups are very, very good. Hence why the ZLE has steels and not carbons, it simply isn't needed. Would it help? Sure. But those brakes, stop on a dime just like my Z does, just with a different feel. The real topic here is the TYPE of CC rotor the average car comes with, thats a whole other can of worms.

FWIW, average, CCM setups save about 40lbs over steel..PER CAR..so 10lb/side (again, average, slightly more slightly less depending on the car).

This whole conversation stems from a misunderstanding between Porsche/Brembo. Nothing what they said should have been believed in the first place. But to end it with CCB is for people who dont like to clean wheels..is asinine.

This also shows the difference in peoples brains...a number of people, myself included originally saw porsches claim and out of the gate said..thats either a LIE or someone is fooling them. A level headed person should have called their bluff years ago, how do you not degrade a CCM rotor?.. they are WEIGHED as denoting time for replacement.

Summary: Someone at Brembo and Porsche probably have bricks tied to their feet and are on lakebed in Italy/and or Germany, this is a stupid topic, average Porsche guy sounds like an idiot, and Watson the "tech expert" doesnt sound like much of a "tech expert".

[Mark_Z28]

Our cars have CCBs because that's the package GM used to get the laptimes they needed and they essentially put that package on sale. That's it. It wasn't intended as an enthusiast friendly package and for that purpose the CCBs were the better choice because no iron rotor has the heat tolerance over repeated use on a long track like the CCBs.

Yea if you are interested in repeated track use and don't want to spend the money to replace the CC rotors, the iron rotor switch is best.

The question is money to replace not effectiveness. If the cost difference wasn't there there would be no issue with using CCBs on cars like these.

Proof of my claim that GM didn't put forethought into the customer experience:
The cost of the CCB rotors, the availability of the original tire(its now only available in the porsche spec compound), the non-serviceability of the spec dampers(dssv are a replace only item)

[pat_t]

I agree that they aren't "needed" but they sure add to the appeal of the car.

I had an E46 M3 that I tracked including at the Nurburgring. For anyone that knows BMW 'M' cars of that era, they were woefully under-braked as standard. Literally everyone who buys one and expects to turn a wheel on track has to upgrade the brakes front and rear. I paid probably the equivalent of around $2500 for the ultimate steel BBK from Alcon Racing. After which the brakes were awesome.

Part of the appeal of the Z/28 to me was the bonkers fact that Chevy made a production car with CCBs, Race Spec spool valve dampers, adjustable factory aero, no Aircon, no stereo, hardcore track tyres, forged lightweight rims, special lightweight glass, manually sliding seats, manual 6-speed and a killer dry sump V8. Just to kick ass on track and be a real "driver's choice car".

The car would lose some of it's appeal to me if I took away any of these elements. I've already taken an additional 100lbs out of my Z28 and I'll be keeping the CCBs.

Also note: the springrate and damper tuning won't be quite right if you switch to steel rotors.

The 6th gen ZL1 1LE obviously has suspension tuned for steel unsprung masses from the factory.

[MrRaZ28]

I can say that I have felt no adverse effects from having steel rotors in comparison to the CCB's. My home track is opening up in another month or two, and I'll really be able to compare my times. But, don't let my feelings tell you otherwise... look at this post where he gives actual data.

https://www.camaro5.com/forums/showp...4&postcount=16

[Biergut]

Originally Posted by pat_t

Part of the appeal of the Z/28 to me was the bonkers fact that Chevy made a production car with CCBs, Race Spec spool valve dampers, adjustable factory aero, no Aircon, no stereo, hardcore track tyres, forged lightweight rims, special lightweight glass, manually sliding seats, manual 6-speed and a killer dry sump V8. Just to kick ass on track and be a real "driver's choice car".

This was ALL of the appeal to me for the Z/28 and I knew going in that a iron rotor conversion was in the cards once the CCBs were shot.

Now... if i can get somewhere in the 15 to 20 day use from the CCBs I might consider staying with them. ($1250 per) My last C6 Corvette with the Essex AP Racing floating rotor set up was giving me 6 days of hard use. They ran $400 per rotor... I'll wait to reserve judgement. I doubt the CCBs will give me 15-20 days, but a guy can dream can't he?

[Supercup]

Originally Posted by Biergut

T I'll wait to reserve judgement. I doubt the CCBs will give me 15-20 days, but a guy can dream can't he?

Key to getting extended time on your CCB's is brake pads - do you stay with OEM or change them out to RB XC-40 or 41's - no question not letting your pads wear down too far will help keep heat build up down and that will benefit the life of the rotor - so spend you money on pads as you go so you don't have to spend a lot more on new rotors. But at some point rotors will have to be changed out if you put in a lot of track time.

I think Fusion gave us a good view of what a heavily tracked car will do with OEM CCB's - he ran 35+ track hours on the OEM set up before he swapped out pads and 3 seasons before swapping rotors. Here are two links of his to review for more information to consider including photos of wear.

Swap of pads on Z/28 to AP XC 41
link: https://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=487557

Go to post #126 on page 9
Link https://www.camaro5.com/forums/showt...=438566&page=9

On the issue of why ZL1 1LE did not get carbon - Big Al stated well they cost another $8k and are just a marketing item and we wanted to keep the "cost" of the car down.

So end of day Z/28 was all out track build with best of everything put in and all the things not needed (e.g. creature comforts) left out, the best possible OEM track Camaro that is street legal that GM could build at the time. Zl1 1LE was a compromise car where creature comforts were left in and CCB's left out. CCB's left out and creature comforts left in so they could manage the price point and sell "more" cars. Not disssing the ZL1 1LE at all, great car - just pointing out that changes were based on car sales, not what was best available.

CCB's are better for the track and they are more expensive to operate. So from a budget perspective steel will be a better economic option and when you are talking about doing this for fun, it will just make more sense to make the conversion.

Really each just have to decide the value they get of what they run. If not racing for real and looking for the last 10th - steel rotors will be the best economic option.

[joelster]

Originally Posted by kramard

I’m so happy with the iron discs from the zl1. I loved them on my z/28 and I love them on my zl1. Brake pad wear instantly better on track, modulation is better and I’d say they have a more consistent stopping power.

The weight difference is fairly big - I recall 12.5 lbs a corner increase to replace the ccbs with steel discs. That said as a % difference of our cars weight it’s not detectibale in any track data I collected.

I’m was not going to pay the cost of ccb rotors as a consumable. No way are they worth 3x - 4x to replace pads and rotors per axle. They do look nice and dust a lot less and I do believe they’d last the life of the car if they arent tracked.

I'm sort of new at track driving, but if you couldn't tell the difference in 12.5lbs PER WHEEL of unsprung weight, as far as suspension, braking, and turning, something doesn't add up.

[kramard]

Originally Posted by joelster

I'm sort of new at track driving, but if you couldn't tell the difference in 12.5lbs PER WHEEL of unsprung weight, as far as suspension, braking, and turning, something doesn't add up.

I’m not so new to track driving hence forth my point

Whoever can say whatever they like... ccbs make the car; dssvs won’t operate the same; it’s not the same car and so on. Give me a data trace and show me where the ccbs are better. I’ve put my money where my mouth is and ran both and I can tell you there isn’t a scenario where I was going to put ccbs back on my car again.

Let me put it this way:

I noticed a 1.9s delta at dominion on trofeo r vs goodyear super car 3rs. So if we are worried about speed tires are 10x more a factor then ccbs. It’s physics - on a z/28 a steel rotor compared to a ccb disc is worth .38% increase of the cars weight. That’s an indetectiable change in track data analysis. I’ve found heat soak, density altitude and track state changes (along with some good and bad driving haha) in my data analysis but I haven’t found where ccbs are “better” then steel discs. In fact I’ve got data to prove the opposite. On Monday I have data traces illustrating I was pulling 1.85 - 2g on STEEL discs where my max observed gs on ccbs was 1.2gs. I really can’t recall seeing more.

I’m not saying they’re not sexy af or that they aren’t the most advanced brake solution. I just wish people would be more educated about the real world benefits of discs and stop generalizing that they “stop better” or make the car. I can’t tell you how many cars and coffee people saw the steel discs and thought they were ccbs. Or, how many people ogled over gased out ccb discs.

Just for fun, can you tell which one of these is on a ccb and which one of these videos is run on steel?
https://youtu.be/JNrnJ6p0x4s

https://youtu.be/8Tyj_p2IxfU

[kramard]

Originally Posted by Supercup

Key to getting extended time on your CCB's is brake pads - do you stay with OEM or change them out to RB XC-40 or 41's - no question not letting your pads wear down too far will help keep heat build up down and that will benefit the life of the rotor - so spend you money on pads as you go so you don't have to spend a lot more on new rotors. But at some point rotors will have to be changed out if you put in a lot of track time.

I think Fusion gave us a good view of what a heavily tracked car will do with OEM CCB's - he ran 35+ track hours on the OEM set up before he swapped out pads and 3 seasons before swapping rotors. Here are two links of his to review for more information to consider including photos of wear.

Swap of pads on Z/28 to AP XC 41
link: https://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=487557

Go to post #126 on page 9
Link https://www.camaro5.com/forums/showt...=438566&page=9

On the issue of why ZL1 1LE did not get carbon - Big Al stated well they cost another $8k and are just a marketing item and we wanted to keep the "cost" of the car down.

So end of day Z/28 was all out track build with best of everything put in and all the things not needed (e.g. creature comforts) left out, the best possible OEM track Camaro that is street legal that GM could build at the time. Zl1 1LE was a compromise car where creature comforts were left in and CCB's left out. CCB's left out and creature comforts left in so they could manage the price point and sell "more" cars. Not disssing the ZL1 1LE at all, great car - just pointing out that changes were based on car sales, not what was best available.

CCB's are better for the track and they are more expensive to operate. So from a budget perspective steel will be a better economic option and when you are talking about doing this for fun, it will just make more sense to make the conversion.

Really each just have to decide the value they get of what they run. If not racing for real and looking for the last 10th - steel rotors will be the best economic option.

I know nothing about pads (I just ran OE) but at 16 hours my discs were gassed at 18 hours I was done tracking them. I noticed fraying (not a chip) on my passenger disc.

You have / had both cars right? I’m _much_ happier with the braking performance of the ZLE wear and consumable cost are far better / braking performance is substantially increased. At VIR I was sucked forward at nearly 2 initial gs from 158 going into roller coaster. Never felt anything like it.