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Old 05-06-2021, 02:56 PM   #8275
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Originally Posted by wnta1ss View Post
Hero? Wrong on your part, because the hero short times for the ZL1 are actually the guys that have ran some 1.6 sec, as we did have 2 or 3 such reports on the forum. The specific reason that I said 1.7 short time is because 10 of the 17 owners visible in the bone stock ZL1 list with an A10 trans had 1.7 short times on their runs. Meaning, the majority did them.

Agree with the Camaro being a better car. However I don't think that the 650hp vs 760hp means as much with these 2 cars when launching as you are implying. I think if we examined how much torque each car is making at the launch rpm, we'd find the GT500 is not making more torque than the ZL1. I checked and in fact, the GT500 is making less torque at 4000rpm than the ZL1 is making at 3000rpm, according to rear wheel dynos that I've seen. Much less torque at 3000rpm for the Ford. Conclusion, the GT500 should probably be able to walk out of the hole (less brutal torque hitting the street tires at a standstill), and then as it really revs up, it should start pulling hard. Opposite situation of what you implied with your get traction with 760 hp comment, since it was specifically the short time that I was talking about with these cars being on street tires.
That kid wouldn't know the first thing about launching a "760" HP car be it 760 crank or 760 to the wheels. The only thing he knows how to launch is his mouth. Which is why I blocked his ass over a year ago. It's easier to fight this Pandemic than it is trying to reason with him.

Looking at numbers alone (like he tried to do) is silly at best. It is an entire car with different engine styles that apply power in much different ways, different programming, trans and rear ratios, etc.
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Old 05-06-2021, 06:35 PM   #8276
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Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium View Post
JMartin has bolt ons, so it's not unrealistic that he has 480 crank hp in this vert. SS.
the cars make almost 480 crank from the factory.

and as much as i like the ZL1, i dont think there is much in comparison with a gt500. if i recall correctly, you were also the one comparing your bolt on gt mustang to ZL1s from 40-70 or whatever. my car ran 40-70 in <3 seconds and that included a shift (m6)
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Old 05-06-2021, 08:58 PM   #8277
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the cars make almost 480 crank from the factory.

and as much as i like the ZL1, i dont think there is much in comparison with a gt500.
The ZL1 has shown many times that it can throw hands with just about anything under the 100K price mark and hold it's own.

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if i recall correctly, you were also the one comparing your bolt on gt mustang to ZL1s from 40-70 or whatever. my car ran 40-70 in <3 seconds and that included a shift (m6)
He has seen the error of his ways, seen the light, repented from his transgressions, asked for forgiveness, got onto the right path, converted, and he is now one of us!! LOL!!

In all realness, there was a lot of truth to that debate back then. A bolt on GT with proper gearing and weight reduction and on an E85 tune COULD potentially keep up with a stock ZL1 even if only for a short burst. I'd say by 70-80 the ZL1's rate of acceleration will be higher than the GT tho. And that kinda just means that in their own particular environment certain cars can beat other cars even if they are ultimately slower. The C8 will beat a GT500 to 60 MPH for sure. But it is all over after that. There have also been some C8s that were able to keep up with ZL1s on a roll up to a certain point. And not for nothin, but outside a timed event, it is possible that a ZL1 could cover a quarter mile distance quicker than a GT500 as we saw with the Throttle House (or whoever they were) comparo.

FTR, I raced a highly modded WRX to about 130. This was in my HC and it was on a private track. We started off from about 50 MPH and I got the jump...until about 80 MPH or so when he basically flew by me. This happened 3 times.
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Old 05-06-2021, 10:11 PM   #8278
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the cars make almost 480 crank from the factory.

and as much as i like the ZL1, i dont think there is much in comparison with a gt500. if i recall correctly, you were also the one comparing your bolt on gt mustang to ZL1s from 40-70 or whatever. my car ran 40-70 in <3 seconds and that included a shift (m6)
Ha, yes, good memory. It was 20-70 mph in 3.28 sec IIRC with some bolt ons, and I was thinking that wasn't that far off the ZL1's time for the same mph interval.

Like Blaq said, it was only momentary, as a ZL1s extra hp would have widened the gap the longer the theoretical race went on. Horsepower is work over time, and 3 seconds just isn't much time for the extra hp of the ZL1 to do the extra work of accelerating the car. It was a stat I cherry picked as being close because I was surprised at the time.

And as far as a ZL1 not being comparable to a GT500...I disagree. They are comparable in every performance metric except for a straight line. Even then, in street conditions from a low speed, they aren't that far off 0-80 mph or so. I agree from a 50+ roll the GT500 is going to walk a ZL1 assuming the GT500 can hook up (again, ZL1 = better weight distribution). The C6 stock ZL1 fast list has a couple of high 10.9s in the high 120s, which is slower than a GT500 fast time, but not world's apart.

And we know in braking and handling the ZL1 is easily comparable to a GT500. Every test I've seen the ZL1 actually stops better than the base GT500 and on par w/ the GT500 CFTP. The ZL1 has a quicker Motortrend figure 8 time than even the GT500 CFTP: ZL1 is 23.1 sec vs 23.5 sec. for the CFTP and 24.1 sec for the base GT500. I'm not saying the ZL1 is faster than a CFTP GT500 around a track, it's not; that's the ZLE's level. I think the figure 8 times are evidence of the better Alpha chassis, better weight distribution, superior eLSD diff., and lighter weight.

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The ZL1 has shown many times that it can throw hands with just about anything under the 100K price mark and hold it's own.
Yessir, agreed!


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He has seen the error of his ways, seen the light, repented from his transgressions, asked for forgiveness, got onto the right path, converted, and he is now one of us!! LOL!!
Haha!

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In all realness, there was a lot of truth to that debate back then. A bolt on GT with proper gearing and weight reduction and on an E85 tune COULD potentially keep up with a stock ZL1 even if only for a short burst. I'd say by 70-80 the ZL1's rate of acceleration will be higher than the GT tho. And that kinda just means that in their own particular environment certain cars can beat other cars even if they are ultimately slower. The C8 will beat a GT500 to 60 MPH for sure. But it is all over after that. There have also been some C8s that were able to keep up with ZL1s on a roll up to a certain point. And not for nothin, but outside a timed event, it is possible that a ZL1 could cover a quarter mile distance quicker than a GT500 as we saw with the Throttle House (or whoever they were) comparo.

FTR, I raced a highly modded WRX to about 130. This was in my HC and it was on a private track. We started off from about 50 MPH and I got the jump...until about 80 MPH or so when he basically flew by me. This happened 3 times.
I agree - at low speeds with the right gearing, my GT put up some good numbers. For example, I did 0-60 mph in 3.7 seconds with the bolt ons on my first and only attempt - on all seasons!

It had 3.55s, which helped for short bursts. That combined with the 4.7 first gear allowed it to send ~7,500 ft-lbs to the rear tires, which is a lot. See my previous post which shows the ZL1 can send ~8,700 ft-lbs to the rear tires - neither of which the cars can fully put down on street tires in 1st gear. And in the form I had my GT it was ~180 lbs lighter than a stock ZL1. Gearing+lighter weight+flat high rpm torque curve meant my GT could sort of hang for a short moment before the extra work the LT4 is capable of would lay my GT to rest.

I think that is a similar comparison (but in reverse) to the ZL1 and GT500 in a straight line. The ZL1 is lighter and less powerful, but can sort of hang for a bit at lower speeds (and definitely from a dig with the extra torque and better weight distribution). The GT500's extra hp will show over time and walk away from a ZL1 as the race goes on.

I can honestly say that I don't regret getting my ZL1 instead of paying more for a base GT500. I've seen 3 GT500s up close since I got my ZL1 and wasn't envious of any of them (they were sweet though). I thought about how my car performs as good or better (except in the 1/4 mile), but for less money. That's how I know I made the right choice.
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Old 05-07-2021, 01:14 AM   #8279
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i say they aren't comparable bc of the price points.
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Old 05-07-2021, 11:19 AM   #8280
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Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium View Post
Ha, yes, good memory. It was 20-70 mph in 3.28 sec IIRC with some bolt ons, and I was thinking that wasn't that far off the ZL1's time for the same mph interval.
Now that you have driven a ZL1 though, do you still believe that your 5.0 with some mild mods was equal to a ZL1? We disagreed on your old claims, and I'm wondering if your opinion has been revised.

Look, the basic idea that with enough modifications, the lighter N/A version of the car could, in some situations, get it close to the heavier/supercharged car, does have some basis. However, I maintain my opinion that you did not have enough work done on your own 5.0 to actually compete with a ZL1 in the way that you have said in the past. My own Camaro SS has some bolt on mods, so I do have some understanding on this subject. With old (3-1/2 years on the car) PS4S 275 tires on back, I ran 11.5@122, so this is a faster car than your 5.0 was. However, I still would not go so far as to say it was fully up to the ZL1. Best stock ZL1 I've seen here was 11.4, but they could do better than that. Which brings us back to the enough modifications part of the equation, as my car is far from a full bolt on. If my car was true full bolt on, would it then pull as hard as a stock ZL1 at certain speed areas like the theory, well, maybe. Note that I'm focusing on street tires, as giving one car the advantage of drag tires would make for an uneven contest.
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Old 05-07-2021, 12:23 PM   #8281
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Originally Posted by s346k View Post
i was being sarcastic. although i think even 480 crank is generous for the camaro at this point.
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Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium View Post
The launch is a lot more than just peak hp ratings. The Camaro ZL1 has more torque, but less rear end multiplication than the GT500 (2.85 vs 3.73). However, 1st gear is so low in the ZL1 that the ZL1 sends more torque to the rear wheels than the GT500 in first gear which could technically make it harder to launch the ZL1:

1st gear peak torque delivered to the rear wheels (not taking into account drivetrain losses) for the ZL1 and GT500:

ZL1: 4.7 (1st gear ratio) x 2.85 x 650 ft-lbs = 8,707 ft-lbs
GT500: 3.14 (1st gear) x 3.73 x 625 ft-lbs = 7,320 ft-lbs

So, technically, the ZL1 is putting more torque to the rear wheels at peak torque ratings for both cars in 1st gear than the GT500, which could be argued that it makes it harder to get traction.

That said, the ZL1 has a better front/rear weight distribution (54/46, rounded), compared to the GT500 (56/44, rounded), and is lighter, thus, tilting the traction advantage to the ZL1 from a chassis standpoint. This is one reason why the Hellcats are so hard to get traction, since they have skinnier tires, much heavier, AND an even worse 57/43 weight distribution.



JMartin has bolt ons, so it's not unrealistic that he has 480 crank hp in this vert. SS.



Correct, the ZL1 is sending more torque to the rear tires than the GT500 in 1st gear at low and mid rpm ranges due to making slightly more torque (650 vs 625 ft-lbs) and a lower overall geared 1st gear. I don't know if the GT500 catches up at higher engine speeds or not...quick math to check:

Torque to rear tires at peak power in 1st gear:

ZL1: 4.7 (1st gear) x 2.85 x 533 ft-lbs (650 hp at 6,400 rpm) = 7,139 ft-lbs
GT500: 3.14 (1st gear) x 3.73 x 547 (760 hp at 7,300 rpm) = 6,406 ft-lbs

So the answer is...No, the GT500 never sends as much torque in 1st gear to the rear tires as the ZL1 (assuming similar drivetrain efficiency). Do the ZL1's chassis and weight distribution advantages offset the extra torque and make hooking up easier in the ZL1? I'm not sure.

Interesting thing to note is from peak torque to peak hp, the ZL1 drops by 18%, while the GT500 drops by only 12.5% - meaning a flatter high rpm torque curve with the Predator vs the LT4.

Anyway, that's some torque analysis for y'all.
Agree we need a like button

I was being naïve in my response just basing it on hp and didn't think it through.

And yes my 480hp for JMartin's car was based on his bolt ons & E85 tune
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Old 05-07-2021, 12:42 PM   #8282
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That kid wouldn't know the first thing about launching a "760" HP car be it 760 crank or 760 to the wheels. The only thing he knows how to launch is his mouth. Which is why I blocked his ass over a year ago. It's easier to fight this Pandemic than it is trying to reason with him.

Looking at numbers alone (like he tried to do) is silly at best. It is an entire car with different engine styles that apply power in much different ways, different programming, trans and rear ratios, etc.
Reason with me, uh huh, I don't reason with people who live in make believe-land. I admitted my numbers thing was silly and I didn't think that through, but in general my statement is true. A lower hp/torque car is easier to launch. A Camaro is easier to launch than a Mustang because it's a better car.

Nope I've never launched a 760 hp car but I've been down the strip faster than you with less car and I could lap you on the road course in a 15 min session.

Oh wait I forgot you only go to private 200+mph road courses
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Old 05-07-2021, 12:46 PM   #8283
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Now that you have driven a ZL1 though, do you still believe that your 5.0 with some mild mods was equal to a ZL1? We disagreed on your old claims, and I'm wondering if your opinion has been revised.
They are not equal. ZL1 = the faster/quicker car for sure. I also never claimed my GT was equal to a ZL1. I believe I said it was in the ballpark (paraphrasing) for that "cherry picked" mph interval. That said, my GT was definitely quicker than stock, which when stock we know the A10 GT PP1 is capable of high 11s at 118-120 mph on a drag strip. Maybe most owners aren't getting those times, but we've seen high 11s from more experienced drivers.

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Look, the basic idea that with enough modifications, the lighter N/A version of the car could, in some situations, get it close to the heavier/supercharged car, does have some basis. However, I maintain my opinion that you did not have enough work done on your own 5.0 to actually compete with a ZL1 in the way that you have said in the past. My own Camaro SS has some bolt on mods, so I do have some understanding on this subject. With old (3-1/2 years on the car) PS4S 275 tires on back, I ran 11.5@122, so this is a faster car than your 5.0 was. However, I still would not go so far as to say it was fully up to the ZL1. Best stock ZL1 I've seen here was 11.4, but they could do better than that. Which brings us back to the enough modifications part of the equation, as my car is far from a full bolt on. If my car was true full bolt on, would it then pull as hard as a stock ZL1 at certain speed areas like the theory, well, maybe. Note that I'm focusing on street tires, as giving one car the advantage of drag tires would make for an uneven contest.
Like I explained in my previous post - for short bursts, my GT was pretty quick because it was lighter, had the A10, a very flat high rpm torque curve, and 3.55s. But 3 seconds just wasn't enough time for the extra hp of the ZL1 to create a lot of separation since hp is work done over time. The longer the "theoretical" race goes on, the further the ZL1 would pull away.
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Old 05-07-2021, 02:37 PM   #8284
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At this point my 18 GT has catted 1-7/8 LTs to a full 3" exhaust, 93 octane custom tune, cai, and I have a ported IM that I will be installing probably tomorrow. I would say that it is not the car to sleep on in a roll to about 110 MPH. I have the 3.55 rear option BTW. So far I was able to convincingly beat a SRT8 to about 120 and I do think that if I got the jump and if a ZL1 driver was to underestimate me, then I could potentially give him a hard time up to about 100-110. From what I can feel the GT does start to get lazy at about 110 whereas my ZL1 and HC always felt strong at that point. I figure the effects of the gearing are starting to come into play at those speeds.

I had a shot at racing a modded and blown Roush GT (18+) a few weeks ago. He was stick shift tho. I could tell for sure he had a blower and LTs at the very least along with other more cosmetic stuff (hood, etc). Anyway, from a 40 roll when we both hit it he got a slight jump but after that I was slowly reeling him in up to about 110 where he let off. At that point it was pretty obvious that I was overtaking him. Again, my ZL1 has nothing but a catback and cai. If he was auto trans then I suspect it would have gone differently tho. What are we talking about again...??
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Old 05-07-2021, 05:18 PM   #8285
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They are not equal. ZL1 = the faster/quicker car for sure. I also never claimed my GT was equal to a ZL1. I believe I said it was in the ballpark (paraphrasing) for that "cherry picked" mph interval. That said, my GT was definitely quicker than stock, which when stock we know the A10 GT PP1 is capable of high 11s at 118-120 mph on a drag strip. Maybe most owners aren't getting those times, but we've seen high 11s from more experienced drivers.
You said stuff like "ZL1 territory" and "about as quick as an A10 ZL1". Also you said it did 30-70 in 2.63 where Motor Trend says 2.7 for the ZL1 A10. You were talking acceleration from what I could see, and so was I.

Now with you using fantasy or hero high-11 for the 5.0 baseline, are you also using a high-10 baseline for the ZL1? Instead of 11.4 magazine time as baseline for the ZL1? Because the latter would only be fooling yourself, pretending that the 5.0 is much closer than it really is in other words.
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Old 05-07-2021, 08:43 PM   #8286
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You said stuff like "ZL1 territory" and "about as quick as an A10 ZL1". Also you said it did 30-70 in 2.63 where Motor Trend says 2.7 for the ZL1 A10. You were talking acceleration from what I could see, and so was I.

Now with you using fantasy or hero high-11 for the 5.0 baseline, are you also using a high-10 baseline for the ZL1? Instead of 11.4 magazine time as baseline for the ZL1? Because the latter would only be fooling yourself, pretending that the 5.0 is much closer than it really is in other words.
I forgot about the 30-70 mph timed stuff with my GT; 2.63 sec is dang quick for a bolt on GT!! Ha. I think my point with that stuff was I was surprised at how quick that car was and was shocked it was pulling short lived acceleration runs comparable to a ZL1. Maybe if I test my ZL1 it would be even even quicker...

Anyway, yes, as I stated in my above post, high 10.9s for the ZL1 from the C6 best times list. Best to best, it's almost a second quicker in the 1/4 mile, and almost 10 mph better trap speeds (128-129 mph "best list" vs 119-120 mph for the GT's high 11 sec runs). That's a pretty big gap, no doubt.
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Old 05-08-2021, 07:58 AM   #8287
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I forgot about the 30-70 mph timed stuff with my GT; 2.63 sec is dang quick for a bolt on GT!!
what tires were on the car?
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Old 05-08-2021, 12:16 PM   #8288
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119-120mph is the best from the GT bolt on list?

Hopefully soon we’re gonna build a basic B bolton lt2 intake a10 SS on a dr. An immediate family member just ordered a ‘22. If the car doesn’t trap 128-129mph I’ll be surprised.

I was trying to push them to a LT1 trim tho. I was thinking the weight and aero would get another mph, but they settled on a SS which is fine.
No, I was referring to stock trap speeds. Just like 128-129 mph is the best trap speed for stock ZL1s (from the C6 fast stock ZL1 list). FBO+E85+A10+mild weight reduction GTs trap darn near like a stock ZL1 with the right setup. Of course, one can go FBO with their ZL1 as well, so modded to modded no comparison, just like stock to stock.

That said, as I’ve said elsewhere, I’d rather have my stock ZL1 than my (former) GT boosted to 750 (crank) hp. And that was a Premium, A10, PP1, MagneRide, safe and smart, etc. The ZL1 is just in another class altogether than a GT even with the extra power and factory performance bells and whistles. That’s why the GT500 exists.
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