[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by shaffe

To your first point, dyno's are just tools. They can read whatever they want depending on what kind it is, and if it's a happy dyno or not. There are many threads on this site where people talk about engines being under rated and especially with GM engines it's not likely because GM SAE certifies them at a power level. I am not saying it's not possible, some makes do under rate (BMW) but I don't think GM would especially since they make sure to point out when announcing all HP figures that they are SAE certified.

Dynos are not as prone to inaccuracies or inconsistencies like people think. It is just popular to say that. Dynos give data that is just as accurate as a 1/4 mile time or a 0-60 time. When these pieces of info are used individually you can only speculate how a car will perform. When used together you can get a better picture. GM has been underrating their engine's HP for a long time now. So I'm not sure why all of a sudden people think that the LT2 engine will not be underrated. And not just GM but Ford and Dodge as well.

Originally Posted by shaffe

Examples ahead of the ZLE around Laguna Seca by RP so we have some same driver data.

Ferrari 488 ran a 1:31.68. 661 HP 3400 Pounds Mid Engine DCT
Corvette ZR-1 1:32.46. 755HP, 3600 pounds
Corvette Z06/Z07 1:33.05 650HP 3500 pounds
Porsche 911 GT3 1:33.29 493HP - 3290 pounds - lightest car here Rear Engine DCT
Audi R8 V-10 Plus 1:34.23 610HP -3550-ish pounds Mid Engine DCT
Camaro ZLE 1:34.30. 650HP 3800 pounds- really an amazing machine. It's incredible.
C7 Grand Sport Z07 1:35.62 460HP 3455 pounds -
GT350R 1:36.11 526HP 3700 pounds
C7 Z51 1:38.28 460HP 3400 pounds

I could see it getting close on a track like Laguna Seca, the C7 GS Z07 is about a second a half behind the ZLE- but I don't expect the Z51 to be as aggressive as the GS Z07. That car has all the aero from the Z06, Pilot sport cup 2 tires, and carbon ceramic brakes. Now if the C8 Z51 is as fast as the GS Z07 that IMO is one hell of a package, and would be a hell of an accomplishment.

I know the ME layout is really going to help the C8, just when I look at the list of cars faster than the ZLE, I just don't see the C8 Z51 besting it.

I find it funny that you don't think the Z51 will do better than the GS Z07 even tho it has more HP, a better trans, similar weight, and a better design. Looking at these numbers I still believe the C8 Z51 can beat the ZLE. But I guess we'll have to wait and see.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

I'll get to the rest later. But all jokes aside, I don't think GM has "voodoo trickery". And that came off as a bit condescending. I believe that when it comes to performance cars GM has been proving for decades that their vehicles consistently perform as well or better than the exotics even when the performance figures would predict otherwise. Like I said, those exotics will sell regardless of what they do. And do you think some wealthy 55 year old CEO in his exotic sports car with a 22 year old blonde GF cares that a ZLE in a magazine driven by RP was able to get around a track faster than his car? No. Which is part of the reason why I believe that GM has been able to outperform those cars. Because no matter what, they will sell. They could say they have 575 HP and really just have 480 HP and not one of those dudes driving it would know the difference.

Yes GM has built amazing performance cars. Corvette has always punched above it's weight class, but not so much the "base" corvette. The Z06 C5, and then the ZR-1 for the C6 and C7 (and Z06 to some extent).

I try not to be a magazine racer, but you brought up that you think it would be able to outperform a ZLE, the only evidence we can go to is magazine times

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

So it isn't "voodoo" that I'm talking about. It's the fact that when performance is the only thing on the line, I'd be willing to bet that GM makes the best vehicles on the planet. We already saw that when the SLE kept up with the GT350 in a straight line and around a track despite being down by 70+ HP. And when the GT PP2 needed race tires to keep up and despite being priced similarly did not have adequate cooling and overheated. .

Yes the SS 1LE is amazing as well, but that's the alpha compared to the S550. You will probably find this funny, but that was against Ford. This is Corvette against GM's own performance cars, Audi, Porsche, Ferrari. I would be willing to bet the Audi Porsche and Ferrari have their stuff a bit more sorted out than Ford does.

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

. And like you keep saying, when the ZLE is beating ME supercars. And you just read Martin say that at a track day one of the guys with a C7 GS was able to beat a guy in a ZLE. So it is not beyond the realm of possibility that the C8 can beat a ZLE.

It is and it's really amazing. The ZLE is an amazing performance car and that's why I don't think the Z51 will outperform it lol. In order for the ZLE to do what it does, it has DSSV, extreme aero, tires etc its a pretty hardcore package to get those lap times. Same with the GS vette, to get the lap times it does it needs the Z07 package which has Pilot Sport Cup tires, magenride, Z06 aero package, carbon ceramic brakes. The C8 Z51 isn't as extreme so I just don't see how it could get to ZLE levels. If it bests the C7 GS I think that would be the sweet spot for it, because that means the 65K C8 can beat a 85K track pack C7. That would be amazing.

It's more of a compliment to the ZLE than a slight against the Z51.

As for Martin's example that is a instance of pure driver skill. One time at the drag strip there was a new GTO club there. About 20 or so 04-06 GTOs. I didn't lose to one of them. Does that mean I could put my 04 GT in the same category as an 04-06 GTO hell no it meant those guys couldn't drive for their lives. lol

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Dynos are not as prone to inaccuracies or inconsistencies like people think. It is just popular to say that. Dynos give data that is just as accurate as a 1/4 mile time or a 0-60 time. When these pieces of info are used individually you can only speculate how a car will perform. When used together you can get a better picture. GM has been underrating their engine's HP for a long time now. So I'm not sure why all of a sudden people think that the LT2 engine will not be underrated. And not just GM but Ford and Dodge as well.

I think we need to agree to disagree on GM underrating their engines.

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

I find it funny that you don't think the Z51 will do better than the GS Z07 even tho it has more HP, a better trans, similar weight, and a better design. Looking at these numbers I still believe the C8 Z51 can beat the ZLE. But I guess we'll have to wait and see.

I said I think it can get to C7 GS levels. The GS Z07 is lighter by 100 pounds, has much more aggressive tires, carbon ceramic brakes, the suspension set up from the Z06 and the aero from the Z06. If the C8 Z51 can perform like that I think that will be a huge win and IMO should be the target. I just don't know how much better it can get that.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

..... And you just read Martin say that at a track day one of the guys with a C7 GS was able to beat a guy in a ZLE. So it is not beyond the realm of possibility that the C8 can beat a ZLE and a lot of those exotic with higher claimed HP and lower claimed weight.

Just for the sake of accuracy, I said ZL1 not ZLE. There’s a big enough difference on the track that I need to make the distinction.

Small Block Mafia photos from that day.

[13vertss]

Originally Posted by shaffe

all usual sales banter aside, I still can't believe how strong Challenger has come on even if its a good chunk fleet. The other amazing part is its doing it without a convertible option- I know it's a small % but still impressive

Dodge has more models, 4 door and all wheel drive to choose from. So more family and all weather capable.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by shaffe

Yes GM has built amazing performance cars. Corvette has always punched above it's weight class, but not so much the "base" corvette. The Z06 C5, and then the ZR-1 for the C6 and C7 (and Z06 to some extent).

Actually even the Base Vette has punched above it's weight class. I remember one particular where they wanted to see how well a stock Base Vette compared to several different cars including a Hennessey Viper, Roush GTO, Calloway Vette, and some exotics. I think there were 10 cars total. The Vette placed in the middle of the group after all was said and done. This was maybe around 15 to 20 years ago and it was a C5. Plus look at the performance trends with GM and where the upcoming models/trims have been performing as compared to the outgoing models/trims. Not only are we going into a new Gen but an entirely new design. I really think you're gonna be surprised at how well it performs.

Originally Posted by shaffe

I think we need to agree to disagree on GM underrating their engines.

There is nothing to agree or disagree on. They have been doing it for years and they still are.

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Just for the sake of accuracy, I said ZL1 not ZLE. There’s a big enough difference on the track that I need to make the distinction.

I misread then. And it also appears that the GS was modded. So there's that.

Not for nothin tho I do think we're gonna see the C8 outdo the ZL1/ZLE.

[BlaqWhole]

Here is where my optimistic view of the C8 comes from. If 4 years ago you had told people that in 2016 a NA 455 HP SS was gonna come out and match the 580 HP supercharged ZL1 not only in a straight line but also around a track and that is even with decent options then most would have expressed the same skepticism that some of you guys have now. If you had told them that there would be a more extreme version of that SS that would match the then current 505 HP Z28 then they would have laughed in your face. Yet here we are. So I have a lot of confidence in the C8. This car has garnered a lot of attention. And the entire performance world is watching. I doubt GM set it's limits at just being better than the previous Gen trim for trim. Knowing GM, I think they're gonna kick things up a notch. I don't think they're gonna come out the gates with just a slight increase and wait 1-2 years for the Z06 to take it to the next level. By then people will be bored already. And everyone already expects the Z06 to be superb. So that to me means that GM needs to come out swinging for a knockout in the first year. That is what will set the tone. If the Base and Z51 both put up stellar numbers then people will wonder how much better the Z06, GS, and ZR1 will be. If they just take the approach that it should just be a little faster than the C7 then it's gonna be crickets. So I'm gonna stick to my guns on this.

Now do I think the Base and Z51 will beat the ZL1 and ZLE on EVERY track? No. But I do think it is gonna do some heavy damage and beat them on some tracks. And I don't think the GT500 stands a chance.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

....

I misread then. And it also appears that the GS was modded. So there's that.

Not for nothin tho I do think we're gonna see the C8 outdo the ZL1/ZLE.

The black C6 GS was modded. The yellow C7 GS was bone stock. The yellow C7 is the garage owner’s car and the one the pretty much ruled the day. The black one was no joke, trust me, but the yellow GS was the best in our group.

[whiteboyblues2001]

Chevy just released the C8 convertable:

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a2...e-convertible/

Gorgeous!

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

Chevy just released the C8 convertable:

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a2...e-convertible/

Gorgeous!

I just saw the email. It looks good. A solid retractable roof that operates up to 30 MPH and adds only 77 additional pounds to the car. The only thing is the cost. It adds like $7K to the car. So basically, I could get the 2LT Z51 with a couple add-ons that I wanted or for that same price I could get the 2LT Base convertible. If I add the convertible option to the car I configured then it is around $85K, lol!! No way am I going that high. So either Base 2LT vert or 2LT Z51 with extras...

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Ok so efficient drive trains are the reason why Hellcats dyno 5% or less than what their claimed HP is. Got it. Makes perfect sense. So when a 707 HP Hellcat dynos 680 RWHP and then a 797 HP Redeye dynos 690 HP, that isn't because engines are overrated. It's because the hellcat drivetrain must be more efficient than the Redeye's. Or when a 650 HP ZL1 dynos at 550 RWHP which is a 15% loss but then the 455 HP SS dynos 410 HP which is a 9% loss then that's because of drive train efficiencies. The fact that not one of any of these modern cars dyno anywhere close to being consistent even among the same manufacturer and even when they are all using modern technology has nothing to do with them being underrated. Manufacturers one day all just decided to stop underrating their engines. Understood.

All these cars that are lighter and have more HP than the C8 and couldn't beat the ZLE, what are they? Just curious.

Regardless of what those cars are, I don't think you can use their performance or lack of performance as a gauge of how the C8 will do. First off, if GM wants to build a car that can outperform the ZLE, then they can and will. Second, the ZLE is not a threat to any of those cars. Plus there has been many examples of those exotics not performing anywhere close to what their numbers would suggest and they still sell at premium prices. Some have even been downright pathetic. The fact that a ZLE at $70K can beat any of them says a lot about how terrible they are. I think you give those cars a little too much credit and not enough to what GM has been showing that they can do.

Idk if this is directed at me or Shaffe, but I didn't say anything about zl1's and challengers. I guarantee you the ME set up is more efficient at putting power to the ground regardless or under rating or not.

On a side note I don't believe GM has any special voodo, but they've been doing great things with rwd front engine cars for some time now and keeping up with the exotics even with this layout disadvantage. They have obviously perfected grip and traction and now that they will be dealing with a ME setup I'm sure they'll come out swinging make it do great things on track.

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by shaffe

To your first point, dyno's are just tools. They can read whatever they want depending on what kind it is, and if it's a happy dyno or not. There are many threads on this site where people talk about engines being under rated and especially with GM engines it's not likely because GM SAE certifies them at a power level. I am not saying it's not possible, some makes do under rate (BMW) but I don't think GM would especially since they make sure to point out when announcing all HP figures that they are SAE certified.

To your second point, lets look at some of the cars that are right around the ZLE as far as lap times. I just think you are expecting the C8 Z51 to do things that I don't see as possible because you just believe GM has some voodoo trickery up their sleeve.

Examples ahead of the ZLE around Laguna Seca by RP so we have some same driver data.

Ferrari 488 ran a 1:31.68. 661 HP 3400 Pounds Mid Engine DCT
Corvette ZR-1 1:32.46. 755HP, 3600 pounds
Corvette Z06/Z07 1:33.05 650HP 3500 pounds
Porsche 911 GT3 1:33.29 493HP - 3290 pounds - lightest car here Rear Engine DCT
Audi R8 V-10 Plus 1:34.23 610HP -3550-ish pounds Mid Engine DCT
Camaro ZLE 1:34.30. 650HP 3800 pounds- really an amazing machine. It's incredible.
C7 Grand Sport Z07 1:35.62 460HP 3455 pounds -
GT350R 1:36.11 526HP 3700 pounds
C7 Z51 1:38.28 460HP 3400 pounds

I could see it getting close on a track like Laguna Seca, the C7 GS Z07 is about a second a half behind the ZLE- but I don't expect the Z51 to be as aggressive as the GS Z07. That car has all the aero from the Z06, Pilot sport cup 2 tires, and carbon ceramic brakes. Now if the C8 Z51 is as fast as the GS Z07 that IMO is one hell of a package, and would be a hell of an accomplishment.

I know the ME layout is really going to help the C8, just when I look at the list of cars faster than the ZLE, I just don't see the C8 Z51 besting it.



I am kind of not surprised at the mustang sales numbers dipping. IMO The way Ford packages certain options, and the mustang price steadily just creeping up and up I am not shocked actually.

Pretty impressive what the c7 GS, but also c7 z51 as well as the ss 1le which runs a 1:37, can do with their power. Definitely punching above their weight class.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87

Idk if this is directed at me or Shaffe, but I didn't say anything about zl1's and challengers. I guarantee you the ME set up is more efficient at putting power to the ground regardless or under rating or not.

On a side note I don't believe GM has any special voodo, but they've been doing great things with rwd front engine cars for some time now and keeping up with the exotics even with this layout disadvantage. They have obviously perfected grip and traction and now that they will be dealing with a ME setup I'm sure they'll come out swinging make it do great things on track.

I wasn't directing it towards anyone in particular. I said it more out of frustration that we have seen evidence that these cars are clearly being underrated from the factory and it is a well known thing yet people are acting like there is no way the LT2 is or will be underrated. I trust the validity of SAE ratings about as much as I trust steroid testing in professional sports...basically, there is always a way around things. But no, it wasn't towards you.

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by shaffe

all usual sales banter aside, I still can't believe how strong Challenger has come on even if its a good chunk fleet. The other amazing part is its doing it without a convertible option- I know it's a small % but still impressive

This, not to mention they have the charger as well selling decent snd adding to their numbers.

[NW-99SS]

I'm interested to see what the A10 ZLE can do for lap times.

In the past, in the hands of pros, the delta between manual and auto is very small. The average driver is where the Autos have the most advantage.