[Idaho2018GTPremium]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Yea so it must have been a story you told then. Like I said, I think the C8 Z51 is really gonna surprise people.

I just think that everyone is in for a big surprise. I stopped looking at HP numbers a long time ago since not many of them are accurate or even close to accurate. And drivetrain percentage losses do not fully explain how 455 and 460 HP cars are making well over 400 RWHP. Some cars are nowhere close to what they claim. 707 HP Hellcats dynoing 680+ RWHP...and such. I said it before that I wouldn't be surprised if that LT2 engine isn't making more like 530. That number, 495, seemed more like a paper statement. But that is a debate for another day.

Regardless of what other manufacturers are doing with a claimed X HP and at a claimed X weight we have seen the Corvettes over the years keeping up with many of them and beating a lot of them. Before even switching to the ME design. So I would not be surprised if the C8 beats all these cars with higher HP and less weight on paper. I have very high hopes and expectations for the C8 Z51. And even if it doesn't meet those expectations then as long as it outperforms the C7 Z51 I'll be a happy camper and it'll be money well spent.

I plan to throw a blower on it...

I don't think N/A engines are often underrated by that much hp (i.e. 530 vs 495 hp). FI engines may be on occasion, i.e., the Cobra Terminator engines that were dynoing rwhp close to the 390 crank hp rating. I believe that Jim Martin has weighed in on the C8 hp rating earlier in this thread...something about the psychological impacts of a 500+ hp rating and if they could rate it at 500+, they would have. If it was 530 hp, why wouldn't they rate it at that? That's a competitive advantage over 490/495 hp. Edit: also, I don't think the engine is that drastically different from the LT1, so an additional 70-75 crank hp with a slightly hotter camshaft and exhaust redesign doesn't seem realistic from that standpoint either. I think the heads are pretty much the same, IIRC (although maybe they tweaked the ports a tad, can't remember).

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

I don't think N/A engines are often underrated by that much hp (i.e. 530 vs 495 hp). FI engines may be on occasion, i.e., the Cobra Terminator engines that were dynoing rwhp close to the 390 crank hp rating. I believe that Jim Martin has weighed in on the C8 hp rating earlier in this thread...something about the psychological impacts of a 500+ hp rating and if they could rate it at 500+, they would have. If it was 530 hp, why wouldn't they rate it at that? That's a competitive advantage over 490/495 hp. Edit: also, I don't think the engine is that drastically different from the LT1, so an additional 70-75 crank hp with a slightly hotter camshaft and exhaust redesign doesn't seem realistic from that standpoint either. I think the heads are pretty much the same, IIRC (although maybe they tweaked the ports a tad, can't remember).

I think when it hits dynos it'll make a little more to the wheels than a typical 495hp front engine rear wheel drive car comparatively. People will claim that it's underrated, but I bet a part of that will be due to reduced drive train losses due to the more directly connected ME drivetrain setup (no drive shaft, torque tube).

So while it's probably not underrated at 490-495hp(why would they post a number just under 500) it'll probably put a higher percentage of that to the ground effectively seeming underrated while not being so. This is all speculation ofcourse, just based on fairly obvious logic.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Yea so it must have been a story you told then. Like I said, I think the C8 Z51 is really gonna surprise people.

I just think that everyone is in for a big surprise. I stopped looking at HP numbers a long time ago since not many of them are accurate or even close to accurate. And drivetrain percentage losses do not fully explain how 455 and 460 HP cars are making well over 400 RWHP. Some cars are nowhere close to what they claim. 707 HP Hellcats dynoing 680+ RWHP...and such. I said it before that I wouldn't be surprised if that LT2 engine isn't making more like 530. That number, 495, seemed more like a paper statement. But that is a debate for another day.

Regardless of what other manufacturers are doing with a claimed X HP and at a claimed X weight we have seen the Corvettes over the years keeping up with many of them and beating a lot of them. Before even switching to the ME design. So I would not be surprised if the C8 beats all these cars with higher HP and less weight on paper. I have very high hopes and expectations for the C8 Z51. And even if it doesn't meet those expectations then as long as it outperforms the C7 Z51 I'll be a happy camper and it'll be money well spent.

I plan to throw a blower on it...

I don't think many are under rated(some yes but not from GM), I think a lot of people are still hung up on the old 15-20% drivetrain loss that was the believed standard from way back in the day. Modern transmissions, especially autos are so much more efficient than old ones that there isn't as much drivetrain loss.

True I think the C8 Z51 is going to be a hell of a performer as well. It will definitely outperform the C7 Z51, that is without question. As I said earlier it will probably put up lap times similar to/better than the C7 GS.

Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87

I think when it hits dynos it'll make a little more to the wheels than a typical 495hp front engine rear wheel drive car comparatively. People will claim that it's underrated, but I bet a part of that will be due to reduced drive train losses due to the more directly connected ME drivetrain setup (no drive shaft, torque tube).

So while it's probably not underrated at 490-495hp(why would they post a number just under 500) it'll probably put a higher percentage of that to the ground effectively seeming underrated while not being so. This is all speculation ofcourse, just based on fairly obvious logic.

This ^

[GuywithL86]

Doubt it will dyno higher than expected

Trap speed is right where you’d expect a c7 with 40 extra hp

[lt4camaro]

Originally Posted by GuywithL86

Doubt it will dyno higher than expected

Trap speed is right where you’d expect a c7 with 40 extra hp

I think what the OP was saying is the C8 ME set up will RWHP with less drivetrain loss compared to the C7. Put the same LT1 in the C8 and dyno both the C8 and the C7, the C8 should have more RWHP due to less drive train loss

[hotlap]

Q3 2019

17,902 Challenger
16,823 Mustang
12,276 Camaro

[TheRealJA105]

Originally Posted by hotlap

Q3 2019

17,902 Challenger
16,823 Mustang
12,276 Camaro

Those numbers must not be "real people"

[Baldilocks01SS]

Originally Posted by hotlap

Q3 2019

17,902 Challenger
16,823 Mustang
12,276 Camaro

How many of the Challenger and Mustang numbers were fleet sales to car rental agencies?

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by hotlap

Q3 2019

17,902 Challenger
16,823 Mustang
12,276 Camaro

all usual sales banter aside, I still can't believe how strong Challenger has come on even if its a good chunk fleet. The other amazing part is its doing it without a convertible option- I know it's a small % but still impressive

[BlaqWhole]

Ok so efficient drive trains are the reason why Hellcats dyno 5% or less than what their claimed HP is. Got it. Makes perfect sense. So when a 707 HP Hellcat dynos 680 RWHP and then a 797 HP Redeye dynos 690 HP, that isn't because engines are overrated. It's because the hellcat drivetrain must be more efficient than the Redeye's. Or when a 650 HP ZL1 dynos at 550 RWHP which is a 15% loss but then the 455 HP SS dynos 410 HP which is a 9% loss then that's because of drive train efficiencies. The fact that not one of any of these modern cars dyno anywhere close to being consistent even among the same manufacturer and even when they are all using modern technology has nothing to do with them being underrated. Manufacturers one day all just decided to stop underrating their engines. Understood.

Originally Posted by shaffe

I don't think many are under rated(some yes but not from GM), I think a lot of people are still hung up on the old 15-20% drivetrain loss that was the believed standard from way back in the day. Modern transmissions, especially autos are so much more efficient than old ones that there isn't as much drivetrain loss.

True I think the C8 Z51 is going to be a hell of a performer as well. It will definitely outperform the C7 Z51, that is without question. As I said earlier it will probably put up lap times similar to/better than the C7 GS.



This ^

All these cars that are lighter and have more HP than the C8 and couldn't beat the ZLE, what are they? Just curious.

Regardless of what those cars are, I don't think you can use their performance or lack of performance as a gauge of how the C8 will do. First off, if GM wants to build a car that can outperform the ZLE, then they can and will. Second, the ZLE is not a threat to any of those cars. Plus there has been many examples of those exotics not performing anywhere close to what their numbers would suggest and they still sell at premium prices. Some have even been downright pathetic. The fact that a ZLE at $70K can beat any of them says a lot about how terrible they are. I think you give those cars a little too much credit and not enough to what GM has been showing that they can do.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by shaffe

all usual sales banter aside, I still can't believe how strong Challenger has come on even if its a good chunk fleet. The other amazing part is its doing it without a convertible option- I know it's a small % but still impressive

Clearly, people don't like the Mustang (either). Its doomed for cancellation.

Not really aiming this at you shaffe. Its interesting to see Mustang fall after all the blue oval dancing that was done on Camaro's grave.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Ok so efficient drive trains are the reason why Hellcats dyno 5% or less than what their claimed HP is. Got it. Makes perfect sense. So when a 707 HP Hellcat dynos 680 RWHP and then a 797 HP Redeye dynos 690 HP, that isn't because engines are overrated. It's because the hellcat drivetrain must be more efficient than the Redeye's. Or when a 650 HP ZL1 dynos at 550 RWHP which is a 15% loss but then the 455 HP SS dynos 410 HP which is a 9% loss then that's because of drive train efficiencies. The fact that not one of any of these modern cars dyno anywhere close to being consistent even among the same manufacturer and even when they are all using modern technology has nothing to do with them being underrated. Manufacturers one day all just decided to stop underrating their engines. Understood.

All these cars that are lighter and have more HP than the C8 and couldn't beat the ZLE, what are they? Just curious.

Regardless of what those cars are, I don't think you can use their performance or lack of performance as a gauge of how the C8 will do. First off, if GM wants to build a car that can outperform the ZLE, then they can and will. Second, the ZLE is not a threat to any of those cars. Plus there has been many examples of those exotics not performing anywhere close to what their numbers would suggest and they still sell at premium prices. Some have even been downright pathetic. The fact that a ZLE at $70K can beat any of them says a lot about how terrible they are. I think you give those cars a little too much credit and not enough to what GM has been showing that they can do.

To your first point, dyno's are just tools. They can read whatever they want depending on what kind it is, and if it's a happy dyno or not. There are many threads on this site where people talk about engines being under rated and especially with GM engines it's not likely because GM SAE certifies them at a power level. I am not saying it's not possible, some makes do under rate (BMW) but I don't think GM would especially since they make sure to point out when announcing all HP figures that they are SAE certified.

To your second point, lets look at some of the cars that are right around the ZLE as far as lap times. I just think you are expecting the C8 Z51 to do things that I don't see as possible because you just believe GM has some voodoo trickery up their sleeve.

Examples ahead of the ZLE around Laguna Seca by RP so we have some same driver data.

Ferrari 488 ran a 1:31.68. 661 HP 3400 Pounds Mid Engine DCT
Corvette ZR-1 1:32.46. 755HP, 3600 pounds
Corvette Z06/Z07 1:33.05 650HP 3500 pounds
Porsche 911 GT3 1:33.29 493HP - 3290 pounds - lightest car here Rear Engine DCT
Audi R8 V-10 Plus 1:34.23 610HP -3550-ish pounds Mid Engine DCT
Camaro ZLE 1:34.30. 650HP 3800 pounds- really an amazing machine. It's incredible.
C7 Grand Sport Z07 1:35.62 460HP 3455 pounds -
GT350R 1:36.11 526HP 3700 pounds
C7 Z51 1:38.28 460HP 3400 pounds

I could see it getting close on a track like Laguna Seca, the C7 GS Z07 is about a second a half behind the ZLE- but I don't expect the Z51 to be as aggressive as the GS Z07. That car has all the aero from the Z06, Pilot sport cup 2 tires, and carbon ceramic brakes. Now if the C8 Z51 is as fast as the GS Z07 that IMO is one hell of a package, and would be a hell of an accomplishment.

I know the ME layout is really going to help the C8, just when I look at the list of cars faster than the ZLE, I just don't see the C8 Z51 besting it.

Originally Posted by hotlap

Clearly, people don't like the Mustang (either). Its doomed for cancellation.

Not really aiming this at you shaffe. Its interesting to see Mustang fall after all the blue oval dancing that was done on Camaro's grave.

I am kind of not surprised at the mustang sales numbers dipping. IMO The way Ford packages certain options, and the mustang price steadily just creeping up and up I am not shocked actually.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by shaffe

To your second point, lets look at some of the cars that are right around the ZLE as far as lap times. I just think you are expecting the C8 Z51 to do things that I don't see as possible because you just believe GM has some voodoo trickery up their sleeve.

I'll get to the rest later. But all jokes aside, I don't think GM has "voodoo trickery". And that came off as a bit condescending. I believe that when it comes to performance cars GM has been proving for decades that their vehicles consistently perform as well or better than the exotics even when the performance figures would predict otherwise. Like I said, those exotics will sell regardless of what they do. And do you think some wealthy 55 year old CEO in his exotic sports car with a 22 year old blonde GF cares that a ZLE in a magazine driven by RP was able to get around a track faster than his car? No. Which is part of the reason why I believe that GM has been able to outperform those cars. Because no matter what, they will sell. They could say they have 575 HP and really just have 480 HP and not one of those dudes driving it would know the difference.

I read articles 20 years ago where some of those high priced exotics were the worst cars you could ever put on the track. On one such car the traction control would activate on it's own and slow it down even when you turned it off if it sensed that the car was hitting a corner at a certain speed even if it was well within the capabilities of that car. Others didn't handle as well as they claimed. Some of them had horrible acceleration. They were pathetic. I remember reading those articles and wondering why anyone in their right mind would ever want one of those cars. So my point is that those cars are there to make the manufacturer money and that is what they do. They can claim this and claim that and they will never have to prove what they can do because they'll sit in a garage, get driven once every 3 months, never see a track, and get driven maybe a bit spirited every now and then.

So it isn't "voodoo" that I'm talking about. It's the fact that when performance is the only thing on the line, I'd be willing to bet that GM makes the best vehicles on the planet. We already saw that when the SLE kept up with the GT350 in a straight line and around a track despite being down by 70+ HP. And when the GT PP2 needed race tires to keep up and despite being priced similarly did not have adequate cooling and overheated. And when the Z28 managed to do better than the GTR around a track. And when the $130K ZR1 is in the $450K Ford GT's face. And like you keep saying, when the ZLE is beating ME supercars. And when the standard ZL1 keeps up with the Hellcat in a straight line despite the hellcat being built for the quarter mile and the ZL1 being built for the track...and then absolutely destroying the Hellcat around a track. All that when both cars are priced the same. And when the only hope from Ford of taking on even the standard ZL1 needed 760 HP and CF up it's ass. And you just read Martin say that at a track day one of the guys with a C7 GS was able to beat a guy in a ZLE. So it is not beyond the realm of possibility that the C8 can beat a ZLE and a lot of those exotic with higher claimed HP and lower claimed weight.

[rocket403]

Dodge Brothers are doing well

Over the past decade, Challenger and Charger sales have increased more than 60 percent.