[Idaho2018GTPremium]

Originally Posted by Rodan

Aside from exotics and true "collector" cars, it's mostly about nostalgia. When people hit that midlife crisis, and have some money to spend, they go looking for their lost youth. For Boomers, it was 60's musclecars.

We're now getting to that point with 70s-90s cars... anyone priced a 240Z lately? There's an Acura Integra Type R on BAT right now at $71k bid... not my thing, but it's obviously someone's.

I haven't followed 3rd Gen Camaros, but I've seen clean, stock Fox 5.0 Mustangs sell in the $20k range, which is near double their original price. Several Fox Mustangs went over $100k at B-J earlier this year, but they were never titled cars from a well known collection with mostly 3 digit mileage.

Unless you luck into the car that people are nostalgic for 30-40 years from now, cars are a poor investment.

Yeah, I sold my 1987 Camaro Z28 in pretty good condition in 2001 for $3,600 (~$5,100 in 2019 dollars). Today clean 3rd gen Z28s and Irocs are listing for 3-4 times that.

My 1995 Trans Am in great condition with 400 crank hp sold for $5,800 in 2011 (~$6,400 in 2019 dollars). Today those are listing for like $15k and up.

People constantly say a muscle car today is not an investment, and that is true. However, prices for a used 2018 Mustang GT or SS will steadily drop for a good 20 years, then likely start to rise back up if in good/great condition, or low mileage. That is because clean models become rarer as time goes on. However, it will take many decades before they ever reach their original value when adjusting for inflation, if they ever do. That said, they made over a 1.1 million Mustangs in '65 and '66 alone...way more than any muscle car nowadays, yet those are seen as valuable now, and clean/low mileage ones go for many, many times their original msrp. In 40-50 years, I think a clean 2018 SS or GT will fetch a good amount of money, esp. considering the IC engine will likely be a relic of the past by then. But as an investment - terrible, even if it breaks even (accounting for inflation) after 50 years. At that point it held it's value, but didn't increase in value.

[whiteboyblues2001]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

Yeah, I sold my 1987 Camaro Z28 in pretty good condition in 2001 for $3,600 (~$5,100 in 2019 dollars). Today clean 3rd gen Z28s and Irocs are listing for 3-4 times that.

My 1995 Trans Am in great condition with 400 crank hp sold for $5,800 in 2011 (~$6,400 in 2019 dollars). Today those are listing for like $15k and up.

People constantly say a muscle car today is not an investment, and that is true. However, prices for a used 2018 Mustang GT or SS will steadily drop for a good 20 years, then likely start to rise back up if in good/great condition, or low mileage. That is because clean models become rarer as time goes on. However, it will take many decades before they ever reach their original value when adjusting for inflation, if they ever do. That said, they made over a 1.1 million Mustangs in '65 and '66 alone...way more than any muscle car nowadays, yet those are seen as valuable now, and clean/low mileage ones go for many, many times their original msrp. In 40-50 years, I think a clean 2018 SS or GT will fetch a good amount of money, esp. considering the IC engine will likely be a relic of the past by then. But as an investment - terrible, even if it breaks even (accounting for inflation) after 50 years. At that point it held it's value, but didn't increase in value.

A '66 Mustang is one of my dream cars, BECAUSE it is very CHEAP to buy for a classic car (precicely because they made so many).

I recommend it to anyone getting into the classic car market. You can get a v-8 convertible in great shape ready to drive for $15-$20k. They re-manufacture just about every part, and you don't have to worry when you drive it, that you will destroy your precious investment.

Now some of them will be expensive, like if you find a numbers matching fast back 4bbl 4spd. But you can get a great driver for under $20k pretty easy.

'65 and '64 1/2 go for more because they are the first (kind of for the '65), and in '67 they went to a new chassis (and are quite desireable). The '66 is kind of the forgotten year.

If I ever buy a classic car, a '66 convertible 289 mustang is probably first in line (or perhaps an old beetle for my wife).

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

Nice man!! And I thought I paid a lot ($2,000) for my Gibson Les Paul 10 years ago. And my Mesa Boogie amp in 2013...and my hand made true flamenco guitar in 2012...But nothing like the Alembic.

Thanks! Actually I have two now. Sold the one in the middle. Totally regret that now. The 5-string is the one I was talking about. The other one is even more special because of who I bought it from.

Aaaaaannnnnnd...... back on topic!

Nostalgia is exactly what I am talking about. For me at least, the memory of what the ‘63 split window Vette and the ‘68 Shelby GT500 were goes a lot further than my memory of what the best performing cars of those years were. So when collectible cars come up for auction, those are the ones that catch my eye. And when I go to car shows, those are the ones that I’m taking pictures of and talking to the owners about. Of course, ‘67 - ‘69 Camaros are on my short list too, but the ‘63 Vette and the ‘68 Shelby are special.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

I am spouting it as fact. If I'm not given a logical reason, then that means something is wrong. And I don't need a manufacturer to come out and tell me that. One thing I have learned in life is that when there is something negative, you are never going to have that info admitted to you. No company is ever going to come out and admit something is wrong if they don't have to. There is a problem with that car over 180 MPH. Ford fixed that problem by limiting the speed to 180 MPH. Therefore they are not going to be forthcoming and admit something that they don't have to. They are not going to say "oh guess what, our $75K and $94K flagship trim Mustang that we've been developing for 6 years has a problem when it goes over 180 MPH so we limited the speed". No. They're just going to limit the speed and that is that. If some chump buys one and removes the limiter and something bad happens then Ford would be absolved of any liability considering they limited the car to 180 and can claim that any tampering is the reason for any failures and that is the fault of the owner. If the engine grenades then they can blame it on the person who tuned it. If the suspension drops out then they can ask where the person was when they went over 180 MPH and blame the conditions, the track, the driver, claim something was tampered with etc. Even tho the outlets claim this or that Ford has not denied anything. Nobody tests a car to over 200 MPH and then limits it to 180 for absolutely no reason. So yes I am speculating. When every competitor's vehicle that is capable of going over 180 MPH regardless of gearing and aero is NOT being limited to any top speed and here comes the GT500 that is being limited apparently for no reason at all then I can use speculation to figure out that there must be something wrong.

Like I said you may be right and if you are I'll say good job you called it. My problem was more with those articles you linked really made no reference to safety or stability so it was like pulling your argument out of thin air.

Now referencing the fact that ZL1 and Hellcats are unrestricted - that's a much more compelling argument and probably has me leaning more your direction.

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Yes. 2109 ZR1 6MT is an instant collectible. ZLE 6MT the same. V-Wagon? Oh god yes. And I don’t even like wagons. I still think the GT500 DCT or not will be collectible. Might (will) take longer, but the stylish aggressiveness of the car will put it over the top.

7MT

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87

7MT

Dohhh!!

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by shaffe

That is your interpretation and you may be right. I am sure we will find out once someone unlocks the ECU. Until then we can only guess

However. Reread the actual articles and not just the headlines. Those are NOT words direct from Ford, those are words from the authors of the articles.

"If you're a little let down that Joe Walsh's (at least) 39-year-old Maserati will outrun the brand-new Shelby, don't be. The cost associated with engineering a 200-mph car versus a 180-mph car is not insignificant, and it likely allowed for the wiggle room to include such performance-enhancing features as a dual-clutch automatic transmission and a rear wing borrowed from the Mustang GT4 racer"

"Likely allowed" That is Car & Driver straight up guessing like we are.

The Road & Track Article is simply paraphrasing what Car & Driver said, "Our colleagues at Car and Driver report that Ford has decided to limit the new GT500 to 180 mph"

We glossed over a hidden detail in Ford's press release on the 2020 Ford Mustang Shelby GT500 aerodynamics. Ford has capped the super coupe's top speed at 180 mph, feeling that number represents the "sweet spot" of straight-line speed and cornering performance.

It's not like they had a sit down with anyone from Ford Performance or Ford who said it's too expensive to engineer a 200MPH vehicle so we spent that money on the DCT and aero package. They straight up guessed. Noe if they had a conversation with someone form Ford and that is what was inferred/said/mentioned hinted at. OK I would be 100% on board with you and say yeah the car must not be stable or safe or past 180 something isnt right... But those articles are from journalists making guesses after reading a press release

AS far as my guess on why, hell I just guessed lol. This place is dead just making conversation lol.



When GM did teh test on the ZL1 top speed yes they were on a oval so that helped, but did they do that with the auto or M6? I saw Hennesy did a top speed run in a 17 ZL1 M6 and only hit 173

The manual ZLE does 190 or so with more aero/drag, so I can't imagine the manual zl1 can't come close to that. I know the zle has a shorter 6th gear so maybe it hits top speed in 6th instead of 5th.

[Mister Will]

Originally Posted by Rodan

Aside from exotics and true "collector" cars, it's mostly about nostalgia. When people hit that midlife crisis, and have some money to spend, they go looking for their lost youth. For Boomers, it was 60's musclecars.

We're now getting to that point with 70s-90s cars... anyone priced a 240Z lately? There's an Acura Integra Type R on BAT right now at $71k bid... not my thing, but it's obviously someone's.

I haven't followed 3rd Gen Camaros, but I've seen clean, stock Fox 5.0 Mustangs sell in the $20k range, which is near double their original price. Several Fox Mustangs went over $100k at B-J earlier this year, but they were never titled cars from a well known collection with mostly 3 digit mileage.

Unless you luck into the car that people are nostalgic for 30-40 years from now, cars are a poor investment.

Point taken, IOW your absolutely right. There are a number of examples of Fox Body Mustangs going for over $20K on Autotrader. Like you said, those who have some nostalgia for these cars( I loved my '88 Fox Body) now have some money and are willing to pay these prices.


Now, not to be argumentative. But when we are talking about an investment, registration, insurance, and maintenance fees come into the equation. (yes this is in addition to my original statement of getting more than you paid for it). In California insurance, registration, and maintenance would eat up that difference in purchase vs. sale in about 10 years let alone 30. If someone has a car in the back of their garage/yard under a tarp for 30 years. Then decide to sell it. Sure it would make for a great payday. But it would hardly be a positive return on their investment.


My point is simply that with each new generation, people assume that the ultra high performance option will be the last and the greatest of the model (Cobra, GT500, Z06, ZR1). So people speculate on its eventual unique exclusiveness, and what a great investment it would be. Then the manufacturer makes an even higher performance version which eclipses the last gen.

Just my 2 cents to add to the conversation.

[Chadicus]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

Yeah, I sold my 1987 Camaro Z28 in pretty good condition in 2001 for $3,600 (~$5,100 in 2019 dollars). Today clean 3rd gen Z28s and Irocs are listing for 3-4 times that.

My 1995 Trans Am in great condition with 400 crank hp sold for $5,800 in 2011 (~$6,400 in 2019 dollars). Today those are listing for like $15k and up.

People constantly say a muscle car today is not an investment, and that is true. However, prices for a used 2018 Mustang GT or SS will steadily drop for a good 20 years, then likely start to rise back up if in good/great condition, or low mileage. That is because clean models become rarer as time goes on. However, it will take many decades before they ever reach their original value when adjusting for inflation, if they ever do. That said, they made over a 1.1 million Mustangs in '65 and '66 alone...way more than any muscle car nowadays, yet those are seen as valuable now, and clean/low mileage ones go for many, many times their original msrp. In 40-50 years, I think a clean 2018 SS or GT will fetch a good amount of money, esp. considering the IC engine will likely be a relic of the past by then. But as an investment - terrible, even if it breaks even (accounting for inflation) after 50 years. At that point it held it's value, but didn't increase in value.

Not only that but as long as the gen models keep upping the performance drastically the older models wont be climbing in price much at all even after 20 years. With the exception of very rare/special models cars are a bad investment.

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Thanks! Actually I have two now. Sold the one in the middle. Totally regret that now. The 5-string is the one I was talking about. The other one is even more special because of who I bought it from.

Aaaaaannnnnnd...... back on topic!

Nostalgia is exactly what I am talking about. For me at least, the memory of what the ‘63 split window Vette and the ‘68 Shelby GT500 were goes a lot further than my memory of what the best performing cars of those years were. So when collectible cars come up for auction, those are the ones that catch my eye. And when I go to car shows, those are the ones that I’m taking pictures of and talking to the owners about. Of course, ‘67 - ‘69 Camaros are on my short list too, but the ‘63 Vette and the ‘68 Shelby are special.

Do you play the Stanley bass? I'd be worried I'd rub his signature off the back of the neck with my thumb!

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

Do you play the Stanley bass? I'd be worried I'd rub his signature off the back of the neck with my thumb!

On very rare, very controlled occasions. I had the back of the neck lacquered. No rub-off concerns.

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

On very rare, very controlled occasions. I had the back of the neck lacquered. No rub-off concerns.

Good idea. I just looked at the price-list for Alembic basses. The top of the line Classico deluxe 5 string is $41k. Wow!

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

Good idea. I just looked at the price-list for Alembic basses. The top of the line Classico deluxe 5 string is $41k. Wow!

Yeah, Classico is an electric upright. I don’t do upright. At least not very well, so I don’t own an upright. If you price a 5-string Mark King Deluxe with Series II electronics, gold mother-of-pearl inlays, amber side LEDs, and continuous wood backplates you’ll have my spec.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by Mister Will

Point taken, IOW your absolutely right. There are a number of examples of Fox Body Mustangs going for over $20K on Autotrader. Like you said, those who have some nostalgia for these cars( I loved my '88 Fox Body) now have some money and are willing to pay these prices.


Now, not to be argumentative. But when we are talking about an investment, registration, insurance, and maintenance fees come into the equation. (yes this is in addition to my original statement of getting more than you paid for it). In California insurance, registration, and maintenance would eat up that difference in purchase vs. sale in about 10 years let alone 30. If someone has a car in the back of their garage/yard under a tarp for 30 years. Then decide to sell it. Sure it would make for a great payday. But it would hardly be a positive return on their investment.


My point is simply that with each new generation, people assume that the ultra high performance option will be the last and the greatest of the model (Cobra, GT500, Z06, ZR1). So people speculate on its eventual unique exclusiveness, and what a great investment it would be. Then the manufacturer makes an even higher performance version which eclipses the last gen.

Just my 2 cents to add to the conversation.

This was my point. If I buy a vehicle in cash and leave it in a garage and just wash and wax it every now and then and drive it maybe once a month and that car increases in value then you might be able to say you made money off it if the amount you sold it for exceeds what you paid and put into it. But these days people just throw terms like "investment" around like it doesn't have an actual meaning. Or they say they "made money" off something when the fact is they lost money on it. Even if you make money off something you have to consider if the amount you made was worthwhile over the time it took to make it. The only car I know of in the past few decades that you could say actually was an investment was the early 2000s Ford GT.