[shaffe]

Originally Posted by Chadicus

When the LT1 trim is available this makes sense. But until then the SS is the SS. That is the lowest trim V8. But generally I dont have a problem comparing the SS to the PP1. Personally, I think the PP1 should come on all GT Mustangs as standard equipment.

The PP2 for a few laps is competitive with a 1LE. I dont think anyone here is disputing that. What is talked about is the lack of coolers. Almost anyone buying a PP2 is best served by either adding aftermarket coolers or changing the tires for street driving.

I dont think a PP1 is setup very well for tracking.

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

What do you mean by "that much slower"? I'm surprised to hear that from you of all people since you continue to bring up the 1 tenth of a second difference between the GT* and the standard SS in the quarter mile. Slower is slower.

I'll agree that the plain GT with no add-ons is no match for anything other than the V6 1LE Camaro. Therefore it is unfair to match it to the SS. The GT without PP1 shouldn't even exist because it is not built to race in any capacity. It is an aftermarket special vehicle. It was built for people who want to buy a cheap car and then mod it up. Or for folks who just want a V8 that sounds good and can be driven at 60 MPH on the highway. So the only way to be fair is to match the GT with the PP1 upgrade to the base SS. And it still falls short. The PP2 falls short of the SLE. The GT350 and GT350R cannot be matched to either of the ZL1s because that is not fair to the Shelbys. So the SLE would have to handle the Shelbys and the PP2. The SLE can beat the 350 and can either stay close to or beat the R depending on the track. Which means the GT500 has to be paired to the ZL1 and I say bring it. I await the results and I think we're going to see the ZL1 whether standard or with the 1LE do spectacularly well.

Basically before long the Mustang will be on it's 78th revision or 90th trim level before it can match the Camaro fairly.

I think we can all agree this is the way they should line up now based on performance equipment they come with

GT to LT-1 ( both entry V8, both on all season tires)
GT PP1 to SS ( GT gets stuff SS has as standard, still lacking cooling)
GT PP2 to SS 1LE ( both get better tires(yes GT way aggressive), magneride and other go fast bits)
GT350/R - Chevy doesn't really have anything similar. Yes the SS1LE is close in performance and the ZL1 is there in price. This one is kind of in no mans land
GT500 to ZL1 ( both supercharged, loaded on interior)
GT500 CFTP to ZLE (you get the idea by now)

That is soley based on the type of performance equipment they come standard with and not how they perform. That is how IMO they line up.

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by Chadicus

When the LT1 trim is available this makes sense. But until then the SS is the SS. That is the lowest trim V8. But generally I dont have a problem comparing the SS to the PP1. Personally, I think the PP1 should come on all GT Mustangs as standard equipment.

The PP2 for a few laps is competitive with a 1LE. I dont think anyone here is disputing that. What is talked about is the lack of coolers. Almost anyone buying a PP2 is best served by either adding aftermarket coolers or changing the tires for street driving.

I dont think a PP1 is setup very well for tracking.

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The thing is who is going to be tracking a standard SS or a standard GT, very very few if any I would guess so its really not worthy of debate. If they choose to track these models there would likely be aftermarket upgrades.

The 1LE and the PP2 yes a small % of owners may track their cars. Will the PP2 overheat maybe, some owners claim to not experience issues unless it is an extremely hot day, but the possibility is surely there. If there are no overheating issues then I don't think there is a clear winner between the two and results would likely depend on track and driver.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by newmoon

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The thing is who is going to be tracking a standard SS or a standard GT, very very few if any I would guess so its really not worthy of debate. If they choose to track these models there would likely be aftermarket upgrades.

The 1LE and the PP2 yes a small % of owners may track their cars. Will the PP2 overheat maybe, some owners claim to not experience issues unless it is an extremely hot day, but the possibility is surely there. If there are no overheating issues then I don't think there is a clear winner between the two and results would likely depend on track and driver.

This guy. And it’s a convertible to boot. And my only upgrade is a CAI. Granted I am by no means representative of the majority. I do know more than a handful of SS owners who drag, autocross, track, and various combinations of those activities. I am admittedly the only convertible I know that tracks a convertible more than once a year. Thing is....it can be done.

[whiteboyblues2001]

Originally Posted by newmoon

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The thing is who is going to be tracking a standard SS or a standard GT, very very few if any I would guess so its really not worthy of debate. If they choose to track these models there would likely be aftermarket upgrades.

The 1LE and the PP2 yes a small % of owners may track their cars. Will the PP2 overheat maybe, some owners claim to not experience issues unless it is an extremely hot day, but the possibility is surely there. If there are no overheating issues then I don't think there is a clear winner between the two and results would likely depend on track and driver.

I track my regular non-1LE SS a couple of times a year, and it's also my daily driver. That's why I chose this car. Because it can do both without any sacrifice. I don't have room anywhere for a track-only car, so that's out of the question.

And, I have modified nothing but upgraded the brake fluid. And, the car kills it out there on the track. No issues whatsoever, stock brake pads, stock tires. And when I go to the track, there are more and more Camaros out there every time I go. I don't see any base or standard GT's out there. There is usually one GT350 or so, and they sound great. I see SS1LE's, ZL1s and ZLEs quite often. Last time I went, there were only 11 cars in the street car group, and three of them were Camaros, and no mustangs.

So the reality of it is, as great a track car as the GT350 is, they are kind of pricey, and they don't make a ton of R's. In the past few years, I don't think any of the GT350's I saw were an R model, but I may not be remembering correctly.

But with the relatively affordablity of all of the SS models, they are taking over the track days. I see new guys who got into it because of the SS, and I also see a bunch of BMW guys switching over to the SS. One of my BMW buddies from the track says the SS is the best M car ever made.

So, what you said about the GT is very true. There will be very few of them showing up to the track. But SS's starting to show up in force.

[Chadicus]

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

I track my regular non-1LE SS a couple of times a year, and it's also my daily driver. That's why I chose this car. Because it can do both without any sacrifice. I don't have room anywhere for a track-only car, so that's out of the question.

And, I have modified nothing but upgraded the brake fluid. And, the car kills it out there on the track. No issues whatsoever, stock brake pads, stock tires. And when I go to the track, there are more and more Camaros out there every time I go. I don't see any base or standard GT's out there. There is usually one GT350 or so, and they sound great. I see SS1LE's, ZL1s and ZLEs quite often. Last time I went, there were only 11 cars in the street car group, and three of them were Camaros, and no mustangs.

So the reality of it is, as great a track car as the GT350 is, they are kind of pricey, and they don't make a ton of R's. In the past few years, I don't think any of the GT350's I saw were an R model, but I may not be remembering correctly.

But with the relatively affordablity of all of the SS models, they are taking over the track days. I see new guys who got into it because of the SS, and I also see a bunch of BMW guys switching over to the SS. One of my BMW buddies from the track says the SS is the best M car ever made.

So, what you said about the GT is very true. There will be very few of them showing up to the track. But SS's starting to show up in force.

I track my SS a few times a year also. All day no problem. So that is at least 3 of us that have tracked a base SS.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by newmoon

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The thing is who is going to be tracking a standard SS or a standard GT, very very few if any I would guess so its really not worthy of debate. If they choose to track these models there would likely be aftermarket upgrades.

The 1LE and the PP2 yes a small % of owners may track their cars. Will the PP2 overheat maybe, some owners claim to not experience issues unless it is an extremely hot day, but the possibility is surely there. If there are no overheating issues then I don't think there is a clear winner between the two and results would likely depend on track and driver.

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

This guy. And it’s a convertible to boot. And my only upgrade is a CAI. Granted I am by no means representative of the majority. I do know more than a handful of SS owners who drag, autocross, track, and various combinations of those activities. I am admittedly the only convertible I know that tracks a convertible more than once a year. Thing is....it can be done.

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

I track my regular non-1LE SS a couple of times a year, and it's also my daily driver. That's why I chose this car. Because it can do both without any sacrifice. I don't have room anywhere for a track-only car, so that's out of the question.

And, I have modified nothing but upgraded the brake fluid. And, the car kills it out there on the track. No issues whatsoever, stock brake pads, stock tires. And when I go to the track, there are more and more Camaros out there every time I go. I don't see any base or standard GT's out there. There is usually one GT350 or so, and they sound great. I see SS1LE's, ZL1s and ZLEs quite often. Last time I went, there were only 11 cars in the street car group, and three of them were Camaros, and no mustangs.

So the reality of it is, as great a track car as the GT350 is, they are kind of pricey, and they don't make a ton of R's. In the past few years, I don't think any of the GT350's I saw were an R model, but I may not be remembering correctly.

But with the relatively affordablity of all of the SS models, they are taking over the track days. I see new guys who got into it because of the SS, and I also see a bunch of BMW guys switching over to the SS. One of my BMW buddies from the track says the SS is the best M car ever made.

So, what you said about the GT is very true. There will be very few of them showing up to the track. But SS's starting to show up in force.

Originally Posted by Chadicus

I track my SS a few times a year also. All day no problem. So that is at least 3 of us that have tracked a base SS.

I think the trend lately has been that most people who race are buying the cheaper versions of these cars and modding them. Because why buy the upgraded versions and spend extra money on those parts when the aftermarket offers better parts for much less? You're better off saving money by getting the lower trim non-factory race versions and then modding them.

However those who want upgraded stuff without having to go to the aftermarket and just want something better than the base model will step up to the PP2 or GT350 even if they have no intentions of actually racing. Also people who have more money to afford the higher trims will by them even if they don't race. Because they want to be set apart from the standard GT/SS crowd. If I was going to buy a Mustang then it would either be the Bullitt or GT350. The lowest I'd go is the GT PP2. And it is because I would not want to be part of the "GT" crowd. But if my goal was strictly to race it and if I planned to make money off racing it then I'd get the most base bare bones trim I could find.

People have different reasons for buying these cars and it is based on ego, money, status, purpose, etc. But typically I think racers are buying the lower "Base" trims while those who want the prestige or status will buy the higher "Race" trims.

[whiteboyblues2001]

Looks like the C8.R is a 5.5L FLAT PLANE CRANK V8:
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a2...e-c8-r-engine/
The rumors continue to come true...

[Martinjlm]

So, here are my thoughts after a day and a half with a GT350. A couple weeks ago I had a Bullitt. I could see the appeal but came away with that was not a car for me. The GT350 is another story altogether. Hard to believe these two have the same bones. I hated the transmission in the Bullitt. I sorta forgave it since it was a press car and who knows what it had been through. I loved the transmission in the GT350. It had 6,600 mile on the clock and I have a pretty good idea of what it’s been through, so I no longer forgive the Bullitt MT. I was very impressed with the exhaust note in the Bullitt. The exhaust note in the GT350 is ridiculous. In a good way, of course.

Acceleration in the GT350 is effortless and the handling is tight. Acceleration in the Bullitt was a little labored in my opinion and the handling wasn’t bad, but wasn’t great either. The GT350 handled like a sports car should. The Cup 2s are awesome on this car. It would be nice to drive it back-to-back with an SS 1LE. Last time I drove a GT350 it was a ‘16 and I drove it back-to-back with a ZL1. I was impressed with it but more impressed with the ZL1. Back then the suspension didn’t seem as capable, or maybe it was impacted by the difference in driving dynamics with the ZL1 which was just freaky good in that comparison. And the ‘16 was not on Cup 2s.

Things I did not like about the GT350 touch on most of the major themes that I’ve seen on threads here and on M6G.

• I quickly developed a love / hate relationship with the Recaros. Loved the position, the way they held me in position during aggressive cornering. Hated the fact that they are not power adjustable nor heated / ventilated.
• Prop rod. C’mon Ford. $66k car with a prop rod?

That’s pretty much it. I had forgotten about the puddle lamps until I left a rehearsal and went to get in the car. It was a giggle-worthy moment.

It was nice having almost 1,000 hp in my driveway.

[whiteboyblues2001]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

So, here are my thoughts after a day and a half with a GT350. A couple weeks ago I had a Bullitt. I could see the appeal but came away with that was not a car for me. The GT350 is another story altogether. Hard to believe these two have the same bones. I hated the transmission in the Bullitt. I sorta forgave it since it was a press car and who knows what it had been through. I loved the transmission in the GT350. It had 6,600 mile on the clock and I have a pretty good idea of what it’s been through, so I no longer forgive the Bullitt MT. I was very impressed with the exhaust note in the Bullitt. The exhaust note in the GT350 is ridiculous. In a good way, of course.

Acceleration in the GT350 is effortless and the handling is tight. Acceleration in the Bullitt was a little labored in my opinion and the handling wasn’t bad, but wasn’t great either. The GT350 handled like a sports car should. The Cup 2s are awesome on this car. It would be nice to drive it back-to-back with an SS 1LE. Last time I drove a GT350 it was a ‘16 and I drove it back-to-back with a ZL1. I was impressed with it but more impressed with the ZL1. Back then the suspension didn’t seem as capable, or maybe it was impacted by the difference in driving dynamics with the ZL1 which was just freaky good in that comparison. And the ‘16 was not on Cup 2s.

Things I did not like about the GT350 touch on most of the major themes that I’ve seen on threads here and on M6G.

• I quickly developed a love / hate relationship with the Recaros. Loved the position, the way they held me in position during aggressive cornering. Hated the fact that they are not power adjustable nor heated / ventilated.
• Prop rod. C’mon Ford. $66k car with a prop rod?

That’s pretty much it. I had forgotten about the puddle lamps until I left a rehearsal and went to get in the car. It was a giggle-worthy moment.

It was nice having almost 1,000 hp in my driveway.

James,

Thanks for the evaluations! It's great to hear some real world data from a professional whom we all respect.

But, as a powertrain guy, what do you think of the potential of the new C8.R's 5.5L FPC engine. It's 500HP when restricted for racing, but expected to be 600 when uncorked. What do you think? Could a 600HP 5.5L FPC be the new Z06 engine taking it back to it's N/A roots?

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

James,

Thanks for the evaluations! It's great to hear some real world data from a professional whom we all respect.

But, as a powertrain guy, what do you think of the potential of the new C8.R's 5.5L FPC engine. It's 500HP when restricted for racing, but expected to be 600 when uncorked. What do you think? Could a 600HP 5.5L FPC be the new Z06 engine taking it back to it's N/A roots?

Yup.

[wnta1ss]

Originally Posted by newmoon

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The thing is who is going to be tracking a standard SS or a standard GT, very very few if any I would guess so its really not worthy of debate. If they choose to track these models there would likely be aftermarket upgrades.

Subject is certainly worthy of debate. Truth is, owners do indeed track the standard SS fairly often. Remember that the SS comes with extra coolers standard, and is even warranteed for track use if it's stock. Standard GT though, yep, have not seen one at a track day yet.

[gameovergt]

[QUOTE=BlaqWhole;10637967]I think the trend lately has been that most people who race are buying the cheaper versions of these cars and modding them. Because why buy the upgraded versions and spend extra money on those parts when the aftermarket offers better parts for much less? You're better off saving money by getting the lower trim non-factory race versions and then modding them.

However those who want upgraded stuff without having to go to the aftermarket and just want something better than the base model will step up to the PP2 or GT350 even if they have no intentions of actually racing. Also people who have more money to afford the higher trims will by them even if they don't race. Because they want to be set apart from the standard GT/SS crowd. If I was going to buy a Mustang then it would either be the Bullitt or GT350. The lowest I'd go is the GT PP2. And it is because I would not want to be part of the "GT" crowd. But if my goal was strictly to race it and if I planned to make money off racing it then I'd get the most base bare bones trim I could find.

People have different reasons for buying these cars and it is based on ego, money, status, purpose, etc. But typically I think racers are buying the lower "Base" trims while those who want the prestige or status will buy the higher "Race" trims.[/QUOTE]

your best post ever!

[whiteboyblues2001]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Yup.

And, if a 5.5L FPC Engine ends up in a Z06 for a 21MY, does that leaves open the possiblity of a 5.5L FPC N/A 600HP powered Z/28 in 22MY or 23MY?

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

And, if a 5.5L FPC Engine ends up in a Z06 for a 21MY, does that leaves open the possiblity of a 5.5L FPC N/A 600HP powered Z/28 in 22MY or 23MY?

A Z/28 was hinted at back in June 2015. If one was planned for the gen, the details were part of the original project scope.

Interesting to read the 5.5L FPC goes back 6 years. Reuss made these comment more than 4 years ago.

With the success of the fifth-generation Chevrolet Camaro in different motorsports series around the world, it would be a shock for Chevy not to go racing with the all-new, more talented sixth-generation of the pony car.

If comments made by General Motors product chief Mark Reuss to Automotive News at the unveiling of the 2016 Camaro are any indication, a sixth-gen pony car may already be under consideration. Furthermore, the automaker may have something extra special in store for their next Camaro race car, with Reuss saying they are ” looking at the original formulas of the Trans Am homologation of the Z/28.”

Reuss is referencing the Trans-Am racing Camaros of the 1960s, which used a special 302 racing engine as per the SCCA’s rules and won the Trans-American Sedan Championship for Chevrolet in 1968 and 1969.

While we believe Reuss is hinting at a new race car from the brand, it’s also possible his team is simply looking to the Trans-Am Z/28 for inspiration for a high performance road-going version of the sixth-gen Camaro.

“Why was the 302 engine so special?,” Reuss asked.”So, the formula may change a little, but it still needs to be a wicked fast track car more capable maybe than the comfort- and driver-oriented models.”

Whatever the longtime GM exec is alluding to, it’s good to know the automaker is looking to its past successes in motorsports for inspiration.

Read more: http://gmauthority.com/blog/2015/06/...#ixzz623Na3EyS