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Old 06-18-2019, 01:21 AM   #85
GunMetalGrey

 
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Originally Posted by TrackClub View Post
Ok GunMetal, here it goes:

Let me assure you, your car's shortcomings are indeed perceived vs real. By and large, a pace of a car depends on 3 main factors: 1) weight to power ratio 2) tires 3) driver skill. There are other consideration, but these are key. A ZL1 has one of the best #1, better than a GT3. Check. #2: Stock G3s are pretty much on par with any other "uber" street rated track tire (check). #3: you are a novice driver with little skill to drive ANY car fast. FAIL! At this stage it wouldnt matter what you drove, a ZL1, a Miata, or a GT3 - you would be slow. Period.

Your perceived inability to put power down as good as other cars has nothing to do with their weight. If you lined them all up at apex, with your weight to power ratio (plus incredibly capable MRC suspension, trick ELSD and race grade TC) you should out gun them all easily. The fact that you dont, has nothing to do with a car but your skill as a driver. I know because my car is just 130lb lighter than yours, but with less power.

If you think that only light cars excel at twisty tracks wait until a GTR shows up with a good driver
We are starting to disagree substantially on the comparisons between the Camaro ZL1 and the Porsche's I mentioned at the track I specified; I'm not sure how you think there are only perceived short comings of a 3950 lbs Camaro ZL1 with 55% of it's weight on the front wheels COMPARED to lighter, mid and rear engine Porsches on a tight slow technical track.

You conveniently failed to mention key factors such; suspension set up and tuning, weight distribution (which determines how well the power to weight ratio plays out) and weight vs grip of tires and the track itself, which are all huge factors.

1) I believe the suspension set up and tuning on the ZL1 is excellent.

2) There is a reason why a GT3 is just as fast accelerating as a ZL1 with a worse power to weight ratio, because it puts the power down better. I'm not sure how you completely ignore that.

3) Track; A mid engine Porsche Cayman GT4 with Mich PSC2 and only 3050lbs is much more suited to a tight technical slow track like VIMSC than a 650hp 3950lbs Camaro, that's obvious. A GT3 should also do better for the same reasons, because of the weight advantage on all those corners and the weight distribution advantage when accelerating out of corners. I don't think a ZL1 would get any better time than an SS 1LE on this track because it's not a horse power track.

4) As for as tires go, based the observations I've made and the research I've done tells me these stock/factory Goodyear SC3's are not on par with Mich PSC2's or Toyo R88R (though probably not far off) and obviously definitely not as good as the Trofeo R, SCR3 or Mich PSC2R.


5) As for driving skill, I don't care how skilled you are, a Porsche Cayman GT4 will put power down coming out of a slow tight corner better than a Camaro ZL1. Obviously a better driver will be able to maximize the acceleration of the Camaro, but he will only be able to maximize it's potential, not change it's potential completely.

As for your comment about lining all of the cars up at an Apex and saying I should be able to outgun them easily, well that is simply crazy and I am really surprised you said that considering most of what you say is well thought out, you should correct yourself and say; It would all depend on the particular corner the Apex was on, corners differ incredibly from one another as does what is before and after the corner. You might as well say an all wheel drive car can't put power down any better than a ZL1 coming out of any corner, wait you actually admitted that a Nissan GTR will do that and for the same reason so will a car with 60% plus of it's weight on it's rear wheels. By your logic there is no reason to have a lighter car or a weight distribution that is closer 50/50 and that somehow because a ZL1 has electronic diff and MRC none of that matters. You don't think the Porsche have any good equipment on them?

The bottom line is that exiting on some corners I can compete with these aforementioned cars, if the speed is high enough and the corner not too sharp, so some corners yes and some no, it all depends...

I also never said that only light cars excel at twisty tracks, I said it's also about how a car puts power down, obviously a Nissan GTR does that very well as you seem to agree.

I will address your points on driving in my next post.

Here is a video of the track by the way, I'd like to see a video of your track so we can know if we are talking apples to apples.
https://youtu.be/rHxz2vGE9fc
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Old 06-18-2019, 01:38 AM   #86
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From what you are describing, you are likely and grossly over driving the car, starting with corner entries, while leaning on Stabilitrak to manage any excessive yaw (which you would experience tons of when over driving the car). This presents two issues and both will SLOW down the car's forward progress: 1) Stabilitrak will apply brakes to prevent a spin 2) the tires will scrub tons of speed because of excessive understeer and yaw angles. If you carry these issues to mid corner, things will only get worse: the car will either over slow in a tremendous fashion losing much momentum, or will carry too much speed while understeering and hence not permitting you to get early and fully on throttle early enough (at apex) because the car is still sliding too much.
This is one of the classic errors many drivers commit without realizing it. The issue is the car will feel like it is going very fast and at the limit, but in actual fact: this is an artificial limit induced by a driver, while the car is going much slower than it can and should. That's why having a GOOD instructor is vital, as a novice driver wont be able to tell what is happening, never mind how to correct it. How should they?!
Rather, a novice will usually push even harder next time and overslow the car even more. And become frustrated becuase their $200k Porsche gets passed by a measily and heavy Camaro. Funny how our experiences are completely reversed here, eh?

Since you havent had an instructor for your first 2 track days, i assume you attended open track events, where different driver skills are mixed in the same sessions?
If so, a stock Miata with a skilled driver will pass you regardless of a track type. Ive been there myself many many years ago and it was a shock to my ego driving a 540HP heavily modified Mustang. Time to adjust your expectations (and shut down your ego) and get GOOD instruction this season. I know tons of beginners that started in GT3s and other uber cars incl some Ferraris, expecting to immediately dominate local tracks. No such thing ever happens! Ego always gets spanked! Then either one goes home (with a tail between their legs feverishly looking for excuses), or commits to a long road of learning. The primary difference between most novices and experienced drivers is this:
Novices (after getting spanked) will immediately seek to gain pace thru mods, while experienced drivers will seek to gain pace thru better driving. On a 19 corner track, if you leave half a second of pace in each corner (extremely easy to do) you will be driving your car close to 10 seconds below its stock capability. Thats huge! You can spend a fortune modding your car in self denial but you will never eliminate the ROOT CAUSE.

Now if you are both "impatient" and "not committed" then i dont envy your instructor But i hope this is just your ambition talking. But if you are serious may i suggest you NEVER take up sky diving...Ok, kidding aside...

A word on PTM Sport 1: GM PTM modes are fantastic and Sport 1 is a superb setting, which still maintains Stabilitrak and allows for VERY fast laps. But! You must NOT over drive the car lest you will be much slower! The goal here is not to drive gung ho and lean on Stabilitrak as a crutch to compensate for your lack of skill, but rather to learn to FEEL the car and do your best so that Stabilitrak never engages. If you dont know whether it does, or doesnt, this means you havent developed a skill to sense what the car is telling you and you need to SLOW DOWN, start over and creep up on the limit and know when you start exceeding it.

The other way of course is to go with PTM Race, but this turns off Stabilitrak and you will have to compensate for all and any excessive yaw as a driver with NO HELP FROM A COMPUTER. And if you cant feel it, and/or dont have sufficient skill to correct it, then you will spin out, go off, wreck, total the car, or injure yourself.

That's reality and there are NO SHORT CUTS here. The skill is what separates boys from men on a track and it has little to do with what they are driving. If you think that only light cars excel at twisty tracks wait until a GTR shows up with a good driver You seem to seek some sort of fixed definition of time to develop sufficient skill to drive fast, but no such definition exists. It all depends on one's learning style, level of dedication, mental focus, quality and duration of instruction, self awareness, the car (the faster it is the harder it is to learn on btw), etc.
All i will tell ya with absolute conviction: it will NOT happen in several days even if you have an amazing natural talent. Dont forget most pro stars start the learning process at age of 4 or 6...We will never be pros, but even basic skills take time. Brain needs time to learn.

The first time your car starts to swap ends and you successfully correct it while not losing much pace, or soiling your pants, then youll know you have arrived at another skill level. A level that will now permit you to CONTINUE your education for as long as you track your car. This learning journey should never stop. And that's also what separates an average driver from a very fast driver: continued learning.

The key is to be sufficiently self aware not to let our ambitions exceed our skill levels, lest bad things happen.
Ive seen my share of torn up cars to know this is key. This is particularly evident at an intermediate skill level where a lot of folks think they have already fully arrived and know it all. Usually such attitude ends with a wreck.

As far as street track tires vs slicks. The main difference is that slicks will permit higher cornering speeds, but they have narrower slip angle limits. This means a strčet tire wil let go off a bit sooner but do so more progressively allowing a driver more time for corrections to avoid a spin. A slick will do it at much higher Gs, while the car is cornering faster, but more suddenly, requiring a driver to envoke much faster and skillful correction to avoid a spin. Hence slicks are not a good tire to learn on, as they introduce a higher difficulty environment for a driver and hence a much higher risk.

So...until such time as you can actually feel what each end of the car is telling ya grip wise, and until you can correct excessive yaw as a driver: dont make the learning process any harder than it already is, especially given you have a very fast car.

Now to close it all off: i am 1 hr off your time zone for another week. If you'd like to chat, id be happy to - just PM me. This may be much more productive and effective vs exchanging written words.Also, sending your vid to racers360 would be a good idea, albeit perhaps a wee bit too early. Id hire an in car instructor first.
Cheers!
I agree with almost everything you are saying here and have come to a similar conclusion myself regrading how hot I'm coming into the corners, what the risk vs reward is compared to other areas I can improve my time.
I'm probably over driving my car some of the time, mostly when another car is right in front of me or behind me, probably not grossly, especially when not pressured, I'd say over the entire day of 6 twenty minute sessions I slid or spun my car to some varying degree through a corner about 5 or 6 times.
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Old 06-18-2019, 07:26 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by GunMetalGrey View Post
On that note, what do you consider to be significant lap time improvements?
In the very beginning you'll likely improve by whole seconds, as in two or more from one event to the next. After that, improvement as measured by lap times slows into the tenths-of-a-second range - and may even stall for a bit until you have some "ah-ha" moment or other (call this the gut-level understanding you get when something that used to be just words suddenly makes a lot of sense).

Incidentally, looking at mean lap times (laps not involving traffic) and the standard deviation for those lap times is probably going to be more meaningful than looking at a single hero lap time that you couldn't back up within a whole second or more. IOW, put more value on where you're running on average and how consistently you're there than on what you did once and couldn't duplicate.


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Old 06-18-2019, 09:58 AM   #88
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We are starting to disagree substantially on the comparisons between the Camaro ZL1 and the Porsche's I mentioned at the track I specified; I'm not sure how you think there are only perceived short comings of a 3950 lbs Camaro ZL1 with 55% of it's weight on the front wheels COMPARED to lighter, mid and rear engine Porsches on a tight slow technical track.

You conveniently failed to mention key factors such; suspension set up and tuning, weight distribution (which determines how well the power to weight ratio plays out) and weight vs grip of tires and the track itself, which are all huge factors.

1) I believe the suspension set up and tuning on the ZL1 is excellent.

2) There is a reason why a GT3 is just as fast accelerating as a ZL1 with a worse power to weight ratio, because it puts the power down better. I'm not sure how you completely ignore that.

3) Track; A mid engine Porsche Cayman GT4 with Mich PSC2 and only 3050lbs is much more suited to a tight technical slow track like VIMSC than a 650hp 3950lbs Camaro, that's obvious. A GT3 should also do better for the same reasons, because of the weight advantage on all those corners and the weight distribution advantage when accelerating out of corners. I don't think a ZL1 would get any better time than an SS 1LE on this track because it's not a horse power track.

4) As for as tires go, based the observations I've made and the research I've done tells me these stock/factory Goodyear SC3's are not on par with Mich PSC2's or Toyo R88R (though probably not far off) and obviously definitely not as good as the Trofeo R, SCR3 or Mich PSC2R.


5) As for driving skill, I don't care how skilled you are, a Porsche Cayman GT4 will put power down coming out of a slow tight corner better than a Camaro ZL1. Obviously a better driver will be able to maximize the acceleration of the Camaro, but he will only be able to maximize it's potential, not change it's potential completely.

As for your comment about lining all of the cars up at an Apex and saying I should be able to outgun them easily, well that is simply crazy and I am really surprised you said that considering most of what you say is well thought out, you should correct yourself and say; It would all depend on the particular corner the Apex was on, corners differ incredibly from one another as does what is before and after the corner. You might as well say an all wheel drive car can't put power down any better than a ZL1 coming out of any corner, wait you actually admitted that a Nissan GTR will do that and for the same reason so will a car with 60% plus of it's weight on it's rear wheels. By your logic there is no reason to have a lighter car or a weight distribution that is closer 50/50 and that somehow because a ZL1 has electronic diff and MRC none of that matters. You don't think the Porsche have any good equipment on them?

The bottom line is that exiting on some corners I can compete with these aforementioned cars, if the speed is high enough and the corner not too sharp, so some corners yes and some no, it all depends...

I also never said that only light cars excel at twisty tracks, I said it's also about how a car puts power down, obviously a Nissan GTR does that very well as you seem to agree.

I will address your points on driving in my next post.

Here is a video of the track by the way, I'd like to see a video of your track so we can know if we are talking apples to apples.
https://youtu.be/rHxz2vGE9fc
Well, we can discuss the tech merits of each marquee from our respective armchairs until cows come home
I can assure you no GT4 puts power down better than my car because i have run against many at different tracks.
Also, don't underestimate old front engine/rear drive architecture. Is it ideal? No. Can it be super fast? Yes!
ZR1 relic beat the mighty mid engine Ford GT afterall...with an aged GM engineer vs a pro race car driver behind a wheel. Apparently miracles can happen

Your research aside, i have actually run Cup2s on my car and can tell ya without any hesitation they didnt make me any faster for an extra grand. Of course G3s are not in the same league as G3R, Trofeo R etc. Those tires are virtually DOT slicks.

Ive watched your vid and you did very well for your first track day. Very well indeed! Congrats! As per my previous assumptions, you lean on Stabilitrak a lot. And you are over driving most slow corners, which is preventing you from putting power down early enough. The car is fighting your inputs thru the first twisty sector pretty badly. As i said, this is driver induced and will have the same results regardless of the car. In some cases you probably engage both Stabilitrak and TC together, which will neauter the car's available performance. So try to be neater on entry, allow the car to rotate and be fully balanced once you reach an apex - so you can maximize the exit. I know, easier said than done, but a fast way to drive slow corners is slow

I see 1:22s easily in this car. Have fun and play safe!

PS i will be posting today's Speed Secrets. Some good reading there for ya a propos slow corners and such. Ciao!

EDIT: i dont post on YouTube, but maybe i will one day.
As far as "apples to apples" you can look up my laps in the sticky above, then compare them to Ontario Time Attack records for GT1 class. That will give you a general idea about my pace. Ive had other lap data but lost my PDR stick. But will try to correct it this season.

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Old 06-18-2019, 11:22 AM   #89
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2) There is a reason why a GT3 is just as fast accelerating as a ZL1 with a worse power to weight ratio, because it puts the power down better.
Trust me, what happens during acceleration is not as simple as what single-value peak power to weight ratios tend to suggest. While those numbers are pretty good as far as estimating quarter mile trap speed goes, they're not quite as good for predicting quarter mile ETs, and less useful still for everything else. Avoid trying to extrapolate the point-and-shoot nature that 650 HP generally implies.


Quote:
5) As for driving skill, I don't care how skilled you are, a Porsche Cayman GT4 will put power down coming out of a slow tight corner better than a Camaro ZL1. Obviously a better driver will be able to maximize the acceleration of the Camaro, but he will only be able to maximize it's potential, not change it's potential completely.
I'm afraid you're confusing potential with reality here. The GT4 may have the greater ultimate potential in this situation, but it's still up to the driver how much of that potential is actually realized.

The mantra I first heard regarding the relative importance of paths to one's progress, back when I was autocrossing, was "seat time, tires (& wheels), everything else. But I think in the very beginning of one's development it should read more like "seat time, seat time, everything else (including the tires & wheels)".


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Old 06-18-2019, 11:59 AM   #90
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I will chime in with another thought re the subject of "putting power down":

TC is calibrated differently for each PTM mode. It is most restrictive in PTM Wet and least in PTM Race. PTM Sport 1 is a wonderful setting, providing for a wide safety net, but it will be more restrictive (together with Stabilitrak) on exits to prevent any over slip and potential oversteer. In other words, unless you have a very well balanced car on exit, you will not have access to full power. That's the "price" for a nice safety net. In PTM Sport 2, Stabilitrak turns off and puts the job of yaw management fully on a drive, plus TC is the same as in PTM Sport 1.
PTM Race is as close to a race TC calibration as it gets, which permits the highest slip angles and most power and assumes the driver will correct any excessive over slip. In GM's words: "we dont know a better way to make the car go any faster" (may not be an exact quote but very close).

So as long as you drive it in PTM Sport 1, be neat and tidy and dont over drive the car.

Like Norm i had learnt how to drive with all off (another Stang here), which teaches one about over driving a car in a big hurry. Today's tech is truly fabulous, but it pays if one understands how it works, including adjusting their expectations accordingly.
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Old 06-20-2019, 12:42 AM   #91
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In the very beginning you'll likely improve by whole seconds, as in two or more from one event to the next. After that, improvement as measured by lap times slows into the tenths-of-a-second range - and may even stall for a bit until you have some "ah-ha" moment or other (call this the gut-level understanding you get when something that used to be just words suddenly makes a lot of sense).

Incidentally, looking at mean lap times (laps not involving traffic) and the standard deviation for those lap times is probably going to be more meaningful than looking at a single hero lap time that you couldn't back up within a whole second or more. IOW, put more value on where you're running on average and how consistently you're there than on what you did once and couldn't duplicate.


Norm
Good point, I was disappointed that only on 1 lap did i get into the 1:25's, I would have liked to seen a few laps in the 1:25's
Hopefully on my 2nd dry track day I'll be able to do this and get into the 1:24's, we will see how much time I can cut off during a whole day of instructor led tracking.
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Old 06-20-2019, 12:58 AM   #92
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Ive watched your vid and you did very well for your first track day. Very well indeed! Congrats! As per my previous assumptions, you lean on Stabilitrak a lot. And you are over driving most slow corners, which is preventing you from putting power down early enough. The car is fighting your inputs thru the first twisty sector pretty badly. As i said, this is driver induced and will have the same results regardless of the car. In some cases you probably engage both Stabilitrak and TC together, which will neauter the car's available performance. So try to be neater on entry, allow the car to rotate and be fully balanced once you reach an apex - so you can maximize the exit. I know, easier said than done, but a fast way to drive slow corners is slow

I see 1:22s easily in this car. Have fun and play safe!

PS i will be posting today's Speed Secrets. Some good reading there for ya a propos slow corners and such. Ciao!

EDIT: i dont post on YouTube, but maybe i will one day.
As far as "apples to apples" you can look up my laps in the sticky above, then compare them to Ontario Time Attack records for GT1 class. That will give you a general idea about my pace. Ive had other lap data but lost my PDR stick. But will try to correct it this season.
Thanks for the observations and advice, I would love to get into the 1:22's, that seems tough to do, but we will see what the instructor does for my lap times!
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Old 06-20-2019, 10:41 AM   #93
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Thanks for the observations and advice, I would love to get into the 1:22's, that seems tough to do, but we will see what the instructor does for my lap times!
Ive seen vids of 23s from average good cars on average good street track tires (vs slicks), so given your 25s pace which was achieved with virtually no experience and zero instruction, on a pretty "messy" lap, that should be very doable. But no doubt it will take some time to achieve and it is perfectly normal.

Do not expect your instructor to focus on laptimes, but rather on proper technique et al. It is almost impossible to teach anyone anything when a driver is going at 10/10ths of their mental abilities with no room for accepting and processing feedback. So be patient in order to get the most out of coaching. You need to learn the skill first, internalize it into a subconscious habit thru practice, then use it to increase pace.

To get the most out of any car largely depends on a driver's ability to effectively manage weight transfers and maintain as good a balance as possible to maximize traction from all 4 tires at their peak levels. It is that "simple". In reality it is a rather complex affair, which largely depends on ability to apply driver controls properly - based on sensing what the car is doing balance wise - thru every phase of every corner.

To this end, Stabilitrak will help you avoid "big moments", but will be counter productive to the sensing part, especially on a tight track, which is easy to over drive. NOT suggesting you should turn it off if you feel you're not ready (and most definitely NOT!!! if you dont have patience to learn in small steps), but you should be aware of this limitation.

Hope this makes some sense to ya. Have fun at your next event! Cheers!
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Old 07-07-2019, 11:38 PM   #94
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Ive seen vids of 23s from average good cars on average good street track tires (vs slicks), so given your 25s pace which was achieved with virtually no experience and zero instruction, on a pretty "messy" lap, that should be very doable. But no doubt it will take some time to achieve and it is perfectly normal.

Do not expect your instructor to focus on laptimes, but rather on proper technique et al. It is almost impossible to teach anyone anything when a driver is going at 10/10ths of their mental abilities with no room for accepting and processing feedback. So be patient in order to get the most out of coaching. You need to learn the skill first, internalize it into a subconscious habit thru practice, then use it to increase pace.

To get the most out of any car largely depends on a driver's ability to effectively manage weight transfers and maintain as good a balance as possible to maximize traction from all 4 tires at their peak levels. It is that "simple". In reality it is a rather complex affair, which largely depends on ability to apply driver controls properly - based on sensing what the car is doing balance wise - thru every phase of every corner.

To this end, Stabilitrak will help you avoid "big moments", but will be counter productive to the sensing part, especially on a tight track, which is easy to over drive. NOT suggesting you should turn it off if you feel you're not ready (and most definitely NOT!!! if you dont have patience to learn in small steps), but you should be aware of this limitation.

Hope this makes some sense to ya. Have fun at your next event! Cheers!
Thanks! Hope so

AutoTempest.com Honda S2000 with about $10,000 in suspension upgrades is in the 1:23's talk about completely different car and driving, sometimes he doesn't even brake for corners because he's going to slow on the straights but can pull high g's.

DudeOnTrack in a Porsche 911 4S (991.2) looks to be in the 1:22's and is passing the above mentioned yellow Honda S2000

There is an Track instructor there who has done back up F1 driving and he got 1:21.8 in a Porsche Cayman S on P Zero's

My first training day was completed last weekend, I'm going again July 13th so we will see how much difference made. I'll be disappointing if I'm not in the 1:24's
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Old 07-08-2019, 10:42 AM   #95
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This is the best vid with full corner by corner instructions and commentary. Creep on the limits slowely and be patient. Any track that offers insignificant straights, but tons of corners including major elevation changes will awlays reward driver skill first and foremost.

Any stiff (in a powerful car) can stand on a go fast pedal and pass half a field on a long straight. But that's not what counts and that's not what delivers fast laps.

Wishing you bags of fun!
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Old 07-08-2019, 12:11 PM   #96
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This is the best vid with full corner by corner instructions and commentary.
Thanks for posting that link. Enjoyed the commentary.

At around 4:30 when he's talking about the uphill off-camber 180, the one word that comes to mind is "patience".


Norm
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Old 07-08-2019, 05:15 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Norm Peterson View Post
Thanks for posting that link. Enjoyed the commentary.

At around 4:30 when he's talking about the uphill off-camber 180, the one word that comes to mind is "patience".


Norm
Ha! Indeed. Interesting he is dead even with his PB until the last 3 corners, where he makes up a whopping half a second for a new PB. Just shows how much time can be gained, or lost in such a short distance. Nice, intelligent driving and good commentary for sure. Cheers!
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Old 07-09-2019, 08:33 AM   #98
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GMG: read my latest post in Weekly Speed Secrets.
Hope you will find it tremendously helpful. Straight from a pro racer and an accomplished coach to many top shelf pros. Cheers!
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