06-18-2019, 01:21 AM | #85 | |
Drives: Track prepped 2018 Camaro ZL1 (a10) Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Victoria B.C. Canada
Posts: 1,376
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You conveniently failed to mention key factors such; suspension set up and tuning, weight distribution (which determines how well the power to weight ratio plays out) and weight vs grip of tires and the track itself, which are all huge factors. 1) I believe the suspension set up and tuning on the ZL1 is excellent. 2) There is a reason why a GT3 is just as fast accelerating as a ZL1 with a worse power to weight ratio, because it puts the power down better. I'm not sure how you completely ignore that. 3) Track; A mid engine Porsche Cayman GT4 with Mich PSC2 and only 3050lbs is much more suited to a tight technical slow track like VIMSC than a 650hp 3950lbs Camaro, that's obvious. A GT3 should also do better for the same reasons, because of the weight advantage on all those corners and the weight distribution advantage when accelerating out of corners. I don't think a ZL1 would get any better time than an SS 1LE on this track because it's not a horse power track. 4) As for as tires go, based the observations I've made and the research I've done tells me these stock/factory Goodyear SC3's are not on par with Mich PSC2's or Toyo R88R (though probably not far off) and obviously definitely not as good as the Trofeo R, SCR3 or Mich PSC2R. 5) As for driving skill, I don't care how skilled you are, a Porsche Cayman GT4 will put power down coming out of a slow tight corner better than a Camaro ZL1. Obviously a better driver will be able to maximize the acceleration of the Camaro, but he will only be able to maximize it's potential, not change it's potential completely. As for your comment about lining all of the cars up at an Apex and saying I should be able to outgun them easily, well that is simply crazy and I am really surprised you said that considering most of what you say is well thought out, you should correct yourself and say; It would all depend on the particular corner the Apex was on, corners differ incredibly from one another as does what is before and after the corner. You might as well say an all wheel drive car can't put power down any better than a ZL1 coming out of any corner, wait you actually admitted that a Nissan GTR will do that and for the same reason so will a car with 60% plus of it's weight on it's rear wheels. By your logic there is no reason to have a lighter car or a weight distribution that is closer 50/50 and that somehow because a ZL1 has electronic diff and MRC none of that matters. You don't think the Porsche have any good equipment on them? The bottom line is that exiting on some corners I can compete with these aforementioned cars, if the speed is high enough and the corner not too sharp, so some corners yes and some no, it all depends... I also never said that only light cars excel at twisty tracks, I said it's also about how a car puts power down, obviously a Nissan GTR does that very well as you seem to agree. I will address your points on driving in my next post. Here is a video of the track by the way, I'd like to see a video of your track so we can know if we are talking apples to apples. https://youtu.be/rHxz2vGE9fc
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2018 ZL1; Mag 2650, 2" LT Headers and intake, a bunch of SPL suspension upgrades, YYZ springs, sway bars, APEX wheel and SC3R's
Last edited by GunMetalGrey; 06-18-2019 at 09:11 AM. |
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06-18-2019, 01:38 AM | #86 | |
Drives: Track prepped 2018 Camaro ZL1 (a10) Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Victoria B.C. Canada
Posts: 1,376
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Quote:
I'm probably over driving my car some of the time, mostly when another car is right in front of me or behind me, probably not grossly, especially when not pressured, I'd say over the entire day of 6 twenty minute sessions I slid or spun my car to some varying degree through a corner about 5 or 6 times.
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2018 ZL1; Mag 2650, 2" LT Headers and intake, a bunch of SPL suspension upgrades, YYZ springs, sway bars, APEX wheel and SC3R's
Last edited by GunMetalGrey; 06-18-2019 at 08:56 AM. |
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06-18-2019, 07:26 AM | #87 | |
corner barstool sitter
Drives: 08 Mustang GT, 19 WRX Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Eastern Time Zone
Posts: 6,990
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Quote:
Incidentally, looking at mean lap times (laps not involving traffic) and the standard deviation for those lap times is probably going to be more meaningful than looking at a single hero lap time that you couldn't back up within a whole second or more. IOW, put more value on where you're running on average and how consistently you're there than on what you did once and couldn't duplicate. Norm
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'08 GT coupe 5M (the occasional track toy)
'19 WRX 6M (the family sedan . . . seriously) Last edited by Norm Peterson; 06-18-2019 at 08:40 AM. |
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06-18-2019, 09:58 AM | #88 | |
Drives: 2020 SS 1LE (previous: 2017 SS 1LE) Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Canada, eh!
Posts: 5,091
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Quote:
I can assure you no GT4 puts power down better than my car because i have run against many at different tracks. Also, don't underestimate old front engine/rear drive architecture. Is it ideal? No. Can it be super fast? Yes! ZR1 relic beat the mighty mid engine Ford GT afterall...with an aged GM engineer vs a pro race car driver behind a wheel. Apparently miracles can happen Your research aside, i have actually run Cup2s on my car and can tell ya without any hesitation they didnt make me any faster for an extra grand. Of course G3s are not in the same league as G3R, Trofeo R etc. Those tires are virtually DOT slicks. Ive watched your vid and you did very well for your first track day. Very well indeed! Congrats! As per my previous assumptions, you lean on Stabilitrak a lot. And you are over driving most slow corners, which is preventing you from putting power down early enough. The car is fighting your inputs thru the first twisty sector pretty badly. As i said, this is driver induced and will have the same results regardless of the car. In some cases you probably engage both Stabilitrak and TC together, which will neauter the car's available performance. So try to be neater on entry, allow the car to rotate and be fully balanced once you reach an apex - so you can maximize the exit. I know, easier said than done, but a fast way to drive slow corners is slow I see 1:22s easily in this car. Have fun and play safe! PS i will be posting today's Speed Secrets. Some good reading there for ya a propos slow corners and such. Ciao! EDIT: i dont post on YouTube, but maybe i will one day. As far as "apples to apples" you can look up my laps in the sticky above, then compare them to Ontario Time Attack records for GT1 class. That will give you a general idea about my pace. Ive had other lap data but lost my PDR stick. But will try to correct it this season. Last edited by TrackClub; 06-18-2019 at 10:32 AM. |
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06-18-2019, 11:22 AM | #89 | ||
corner barstool sitter
Drives: 08 Mustang GT, 19 WRX Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Eastern Time Zone
Posts: 6,990
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The mantra I first heard regarding the relative importance of paths to one's progress, back when I was autocrossing, was "seat time, tires (& wheels), everything else. But I think in the very beginning of one's development it should read more like "seat time, seat time, everything else (including the tires & wheels)". Norm
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'08 GT coupe 5M (the occasional track toy)
'19 WRX 6M (the family sedan . . . seriously) |
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06-18-2019, 11:59 AM | #90 |
Drives: 2020 SS 1LE (previous: 2017 SS 1LE) Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Canada, eh!
Posts: 5,091
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I will chime in with another thought re the subject of "putting power down":
TC is calibrated differently for each PTM mode. It is most restrictive in PTM Wet and least in PTM Race. PTM Sport 1 is a wonderful setting, providing for a wide safety net, but it will be more restrictive (together with Stabilitrak) on exits to prevent any over slip and potential oversteer. In other words, unless you have a very well balanced car on exit, you will not have access to full power. That's the "price" for a nice safety net. In PTM Sport 2, Stabilitrak turns off and puts the job of yaw management fully on a drive, plus TC is the same as in PTM Sport 1. PTM Race is as close to a race TC calibration as it gets, which permits the highest slip angles and most power and assumes the driver will correct any excessive over slip. In GM's words: "we dont know a better way to make the car go any faster" (may not be an exact quote but very close). So as long as you drive it in PTM Sport 1, be neat and tidy and dont over drive the car. Like Norm i had learnt how to drive with all off (another Stang here), which teaches one about over driving a car in a big hurry. Today's tech is truly fabulous, but it pays if one understands how it works, including adjusting their expectations accordingly. |
06-20-2019, 12:42 AM | #91 | |
Drives: Track prepped 2018 Camaro ZL1 (a10) Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Victoria B.C. Canada
Posts: 1,376
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Quote:
Hopefully on my 2nd dry track day I'll be able to do this and get into the 1:24's, we will see how much time I can cut off during a whole day of instructor led tracking.
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2018 ZL1; Mag 2650, 2" LT Headers and intake, a bunch of SPL suspension upgrades, YYZ springs, sway bars, APEX wheel and SC3R's
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06-20-2019, 12:58 AM | #92 | |
Drives: Track prepped 2018 Camaro ZL1 (a10) Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Victoria B.C. Canada
Posts: 1,376
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Quote:
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2018 ZL1; Mag 2650, 2" LT Headers and intake, a bunch of SPL suspension upgrades, YYZ springs, sway bars, APEX wheel and SC3R's
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06-20-2019, 10:41 AM | #93 | |
Drives: 2020 SS 1LE (previous: 2017 SS 1LE) Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Canada, eh!
Posts: 5,091
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Quote:
Do not expect your instructor to focus on laptimes, but rather on proper technique et al. It is almost impossible to teach anyone anything when a driver is going at 10/10ths of their mental abilities with no room for accepting and processing feedback. So be patient in order to get the most out of coaching. You need to learn the skill first, internalize it into a subconscious habit thru practice, then use it to increase pace. To get the most out of any car largely depends on a driver's ability to effectively manage weight transfers and maintain as good a balance as possible to maximize traction from all 4 tires at their peak levels. It is that "simple". In reality it is a rather complex affair, which largely depends on ability to apply driver controls properly - based on sensing what the car is doing balance wise - thru every phase of every corner. To this end, Stabilitrak will help you avoid "big moments", but will be counter productive to the sensing part, especially on a tight track, which is easy to over drive. NOT suggesting you should turn it off if you feel you're not ready (and most definitely NOT!!! if you dont have patience to learn in small steps), but you should be aware of this limitation. Hope this makes some sense to ya. Have fun at your next event! Cheers! |
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07-07-2019, 11:38 PM | #94 | |
Drives: Track prepped 2018 Camaro ZL1 (a10) Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Victoria B.C. Canada
Posts: 1,376
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Quote:
AutoTempest.com Honda S2000 with about $10,000 in suspension upgrades is in the 1:23's talk about completely different car and driving, sometimes he doesn't even brake for corners because he's going to slow on the straights but can pull high g's. DudeOnTrack in a Porsche 911 4S (991.2) looks to be in the 1:22's and is passing the above mentioned yellow Honda S2000 There is an Track instructor there who has done back up F1 driving and he got 1:21.8 in a Porsche Cayman S on P Zero's My first training day was completed last weekend, I'm going again July 13th so we will see how much difference made. I'll be disappointing if I'm not in the 1:24's
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2018 ZL1; Mag 2650, 2" LT Headers and intake, a bunch of SPL suspension upgrades, YYZ springs, sway bars, APEX wheel and SC3R's
Last edited by GunMetalGrey; 07-08-2019 at 12:22 AM. |
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07-08-2019, 10:42 AM | #95 | |
Drives: 2020 SS 1LE (previous: 2017 SS 1LE) Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Canada, eh!
Posts: 5,091
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This is the best vid with full corner by corner instructions and commentary. Creep on the limits slowely and be patient. Any track that offers insignificant straights, but tons of corners including major elevation changes will awlays reward driver skill first and foremost. Any stiff (in a powerful car) can stand on a go fast pedal and pass half a field on a long straight. But that's not what counts and that's not what delivers fast laps. Wishing you bags of fun! |
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07-08-2019, 12:11 PM | #96 | |
corner barstool sitter
Drives: 08 Mustang GT, 19 WRX Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Eastern Time Zone
Posts: 6,990
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Quote:
At around 4:30 when he's talking about the uphill off-camber 180, the one word that comes to mind is "patience". Norm
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'08 GT coupe 5M (the occasional track toy)
'19 WRX 6M (the family sedan . . . seriously) |
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07-08-2019, 05:15 PM | #97 |
Drives: 2020 SS 1LE (previous: 2017 SS 1LE) Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Canada, eh!
Posts: 5,091
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Ha! Indeed. Interesting he is dead even with his PB until the last 3 corners, where he makes up a whopping half a second for a new PB. Just shows how much time can be gained, or lost in such a short distance. Nice, intelligent driving and good commentary for sure. Cheers!
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07-09-2019, 08:33 AM | #98 |
Drives: 2020 SS 1LE (previous: 2017 SS 1LE) Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Canada, eh!
Posts: 5,091
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GMG: read my latest post in Weekly Speed Secrets.
Hope you will find it tremendously helpful. Straight from a pro racer and an accomplished coach to many top shelf pros. Cheers! |
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