[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by NickyRacerBoy

I push the car hard. From what others say they get out of them is not what I've seen. It's all relative on skill level. Andy Lee who is Pirelli World Challenge Series driver told me after just 5 laps they fall off. He was at my last track day and coached me. See my thread video.

Nowhere is it demonstrated better than in Nascar, where leaders will come in for fresh rubber under caution even if they only have just a few laps on current tires.

Having said that, some drivers are better than others in managing tires. Some drive with bigger slip angles, some are neat and tidy. Braking - which generates tons of heat - will also matter. So will a vanue regarding load levels. Some of us amateurs will push a whole session. Some of us wont. Etc. So much comes into play here.

Bottom line nothing trumps fresh rubber and "more" speed costs more, no matter what. Assuming one is skilled enough to actually get it out of a faster tire, which is not a given.

As far as the 19s i believe one of the series or classes have switched tires and hence they are not as easily available anymore. Sorry i cant recall exact details here.

[GunMetalGrey]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

As far as the 19s i believe one of the series or classes have switched tires and hence they are not as easily available anymore. Sorry i cant recall exact details here.

Yes that is what Todd said, no 305/690/19's this year... I'm wondering if going with 18" wheels and slicks will be safer in the sense that there will be more options more consistently

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by GunMetalGrey

Yes that is what Todd said, no 305/690/19's this year... I'm wondering if going with 18" wheels and slicks will be safer in the sense that there will be more options more consistently

Id very much think so. Call those guys. Ask what sizes are the most prevalent. Etc. How did your second track day go btw? Signed up for more soon?!

[GunMetalGrey]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

Id very much think so. Call those guys. Ask what sizes are the most prevalent. Etc. How did your second track day go btw? Signed up for more soon?!

Thanks, yeah well, I plan on going once a month.
It's a very tight technical slow track (Vancouver Island Motorsports Circuit) that is much more ideal for nimble and all wheels drive cars or Porsches with their 4 wheel steering and engine weight over the back tires, so it's very challenging to keep up, but that competition makes it's fun and pushes me not to rely on my HP which I can't really use at this track anyways. Hence why I'm looking at getting better tires next year once I feel I've maxed out my lap time with these stock tires.

Next year or the year after they are building some huge straightaways, they said something like the longer largest straight stretches on in western North America

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by GunMetalGrey

Thanks, yeah well, I plan on going once a month.
It's a very tight technical slow track (Vancouver Island Motorsports Circuit) that is much more ideal for nimble and all wheels drive cars or Porsches with their 4 wheel steering and engine weight over the back tires, so it's very challenging to keep up, but that competition makes it's fun and pushes me not to rely on my HP which I can't really use at this track anyways. Hence why I'm looking at getting better tires next year once I feel I've maxed out my lap time with these stock tires.

Next year or the year after they are building some huge straightaways, they said something like the longer largest straight stretches on in western North America

Yep i think that track rewards driver skill first and foremost. But really that the case with most venues.

Anyhow, oops, i must have completely misunderstood your skill level, thinking you were just starting out the hobby. Obviously that's not the case if youve maxed out the pace after 2 days there. Cheers!

[GunMetalGrey]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

Yep i think that track rewards driver skill first and foremost. But really that the case with most venues.

Anyhow, oops, i must have completely misunderstood your skill level, thinking you were just starting out the hobby. Obviously that's not the case if youve maxed out the pace after 2 days there. Cheers!

lol no I have definitely not maxed out my lap time!
I meant I feel that I will be very close to maxing out my lap times at this track with this set up by the end of this year. FYI I'm going for lessons with a dedicated instructor for a full day next.

You had it right, I have just started this year.

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by GunMetalGrey

lol no I have definitely not maxed out my lap time!
I meant I feel that I will be very close to maxing out my lap times at this track with this set up by the end of this year. FYI I'm going for lessons with a dedicated instructor for a full day next.

You had it right, I have just started this year.

Good call on the instructor! Id say keep their services for a whole season (and beyond) if you want your learning curve as steep and effective as possible. Especially that single day, monthly outings are far from ideal. 2 or even 3 days is succession are much more effective for new skills to stick and build upon. Our brains need repeating cycles to learn new motors skills and sensory perceptions. Lest they erode.

So given 6-8 days for this season, id just forget about slicks and instead focus 100% on yourself. You will get comfy with the track line wise, comfy with a car to a degree, but not even remotely close to push it to its current limits.

And unless you can push a car to its limit (and recover when you cross it), slicks will be counter productive to your development. And then you will be THAT guy, with 650HP *AND* slicks but with no pace to match the credentials. DO NOT BE THAT GUY LOL!

NB I drive a very similar track to yours: Mosport DDT. Forget your car's perceived shortcomings vs "competition" as they are far from real. Trust me on this one. Gen6 is one of the sweetest handling platforms bar none. Watch Provoste at Barber chase down two well driven GT3s.
Note where he gains on them. Much to learn from this vid. Note he is on street tires and stock pads and he drives a bone stock car. You have the same car plus 200HP and 200TQ extra. So...do NOT touch the car! Focus on yourself. You will never regret it. I guarantee it.

[GunMetalGrey]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

Good call on the instructor! Id say keep their services for a whole season (and beyond) if you want your learning curve as steep and effective as possible. Especially that single day, monthly outings are far from ideal. 2 or even 3 days is succession are much more effective for new skills to stick and build upon. Our brains need repeating cycles to learn new motors skills and sensory perceptions. Lest they erode.

So given 6-8 days for this season, id just forget about slicks and instead focus 100% on yourself. You will get comfy with the track line wise, comfy with a car to a degree, but not even remotely close to push it to its current limits.

And unless you can push a car to its limit (and recover when you cross it), slicks will be counter productive to your development. And then you will be THAT guy, with 650HP *AND* slicks but with no pace to match the credentials. DO NOT BE THAT GUY LOL!

NB I drive a very similar track to yours: Mosport DDT. Forget your car's perceived shortcomings vs "competition" as they are far from real. Trust me on this one. Gen6 is one of the sweetest handling platforms bar none. Watch Provoste at Barber chase down two well driven GT3s.
Note where he gains on them. Much to learn from this vid. Note he is on street tires and stock pads and he drives a bone stock car. You have the same car plus 200HP and 200TQ extra. So...do NOT touch the car! Focus on yourself. You will never regret it. I guarantee it.

As always I appreciate the advice, and again to be clear I'm about improving driving skills (perhaps not as patiently as you) and also as I've said I'm not changing tires until next year as I want to see how far I can get with these tires and learn the track well before changing everything up and having to relearn on new better tires, I don't want an instant short cut, however I do want to level the playing field since the perceived short comings of this car on this track are very real.

I agree it's a great handling car, but I have an extra 500 lbs to 1,200 lbs lbs compared to the competition; Porshce GT3, GTS, Cayman GT4 and Honda S2000's I am up-against on a tight technical track and those cars simply put the power down much better coming out of corners because of their weight balance/distribution and there are virtually no straightaways for me to catch up on and use my power. Those are facts not perception.

On the subject of slicks being bad to learn on (I posted the following on the other thread as well), I'm confused about why they are actually bad to learn on, although of course I could very well be missing something.

Here is what I was thinking, please let me know your thoughts on this;

Every tire, not matter what the tire, has a maximum potential, so to say that a better tire covers up mistakes seems to assume that the person using the better tire doesn't care about reaching the full potential of that better tire, but rather only cares about how fast he is now going with the better tires compared to the old worse tires or compared to other cars on the track. It also seems to assume he doesn't care about making any actual driving skill improvements.
My point is they are not mutually exclusive and both should be able to be done at the same time I would think.

I don't think you would tell the Porsche GT3 or Cayman GT4 to put worse tires on their car so that they can't use their weight distribution advantage (when it comes to putting power down) because somehow that means they won't be able to learn how to drive and improve their skill. That would only make sense if they were relying on the advantage of their car and not trying to improve their driver skill, however both can be done at the same time.

Having said that, perhaps I am missing something about how slicks actually behave on the track that negatively impacts learning and improvement?

As for pushing the car to it's limit, what do you consider pushing the car to it's limits to be?
I'm definitely driving it very hard, hard enough to come too hot into corners and start spinning out or sliding through the corner, obviously something I'm trying to avoid.
As for recovering, it's hard to tell how much is the computer on Sport 1 vs myself.

I enjoy these discussions, and I'm open to hearing feedback as always.

[TrackClub]

I will answer your post tomorrow as beauty sleep is calling

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by GunMetalGrey

...I do want to level the playing field since the perceived short comings of this car on this track are very real.

That is very much the trap I was referring to in the other thread.

I'm definitely driving it very hard, hard enough to come too hot into corners and start spinning out or sliding through the corner, obviously something I'm trying to avoid.
As for recovering, it's hard to tell how much is the computer on Sport 1 vs myself.

Knowing what you need to work on is only half the battle. Probably the easy half, and that's with me not knowing anything about how likely it is that you're subconsciously counting on Stabilitrak to some extent (my total experience with stability control on track at speed consists of exactly one lap).


Norm

[Norm Peterson]

Mike Skeen is mentioned in this thread as somebody who can review track videos, at least PDR or otherwise datalogged.


Norm

[TrackClub]

Ok GunMetal, here it goes:

Let me assure you, your car's shortcomings are indeed perceived vs real. By and large, a pace of a car depends on 3 main factors: 1) weight to power ratio 2) tires 3) driver skill. There are other consideration, but these are key. A ZL1 has one of the best #1, better than a GT3. Check. #2: Stock G3s are pretty much on par with any other "uber" street rated track tire (check). #3: you are a novice driver with little skill to drive ANY car fast. FAIL! At this stage it wouldnt matter what you drove, a ZL1, a Miata, or a GT3 - you would be slow. Period.

Your perceived inability to put power down as good as other cars has nothing to do with their weight. If you lined them all up at apex, with your weight to power ratio (plus incredibly capable MRC suspension, trick ELSD and race grade TC) you should out gun them all easily. The fact that you dont, has nothing to do with a car but your skill as a driver. I know because my car is just 130lb lighter than yours, but with less power.

From what you are describing, you are likely and grossly over driving the car, starting with corner entries, while leaning on Stabilitrak to manage any excessive yaw (which you would experience tons of when over driving the car). This presents two issues and both will SLOW down the car's forward progress: 1) Stabilitrak will apply brakes to prevent a spin 2) the tires will scrub tons of speed because of excessive understeer and yaw angles. If you carry these issues to mid corner, things will only get worse: the car will either over slow in a tremendous fashion losing much momentum, or will carry too much speed while understeering and hence not permitting you to get early and fully on throttle early enough (at apex) because the car is still sliding too much.
This is one of the classic errors many drivers commit without realizing it. The issue is the car will feel like it is going very fast and at the limit, but in actual fact: this is an artificial limit induced by a driver, while the car is going much slower than it can and should. That's why having a GOOD instructor is vital, as a novice driver wont be able to tell what is happening, never mind how to correct it. How should they?!
Rather, a novice will usually push even harder next time and overslow the car even more. And become frustrated becuase their $200k Porsche gets passed by a measily and heavy Camaro. Funny how our experiences are completely reversed here, eh?

Since you havent had an instructor for your first 2 track days, i assume you attended open track events, where different driver skills are mixed in the same sessions?
If so, a stock Miata with a skilled driver will pass you regardless of a track type. Ive been there myself many many years ago and it was a shock to my ego driving a 540HP heavily modified Mustang. Time to adjust your expectations (and shut down your ego) and get GOOD instruction this season. I know tons of beginners that started in GT3s and other uber cars incl some Ferraris, expecting to immediately dominate local tracks. No such thing ever happens! Ego always gets spanked! Then either one goes home (with a tail between their legs feverishly looking for excuses), or commits to a long road of learning. The primary difference between most novices and experienced drivers is this:
Novices (after getting spanked) will immediately seek to gain pace thru mods, while experiened drivers will seek to gain pace thru better driving. On a 19 corner track, if you leave half a second of pace in each corner (extremely easy to do) you will be driving your car close to 10 seconds below its stock capability. Thats huge! You can spend a fortune modding your car in self denial but you will never eliminate the ROOT CAUSE.

Now if you are both "impatient" and "not committed" then i dont envy your instructor But i hope this is just your ambition talking. But if you are serious may i suggest you NEVER take up sky diving...Ok, kidding aside...

A word on PTM Sport 1: GM PTM modes are fantastic and Sport 1 is a superb setting, which still maintains Stabilitrak and allows for VERY fast laps. But! You must NOT over drive the car lest you will be much slower! The goal here is not to drive gung ho and lean on Stabilitrak as a crutch to compensate for your lack of skill, but rather to learn to FEEL the car and do your best so that Stabilitrak never engages. If you dont know whether it does, or doesnt, this means you havent developed a skill to sense what the car is telling you and you need to SLOW DOWN, start over and creep up on the limit and know when you start exceeding it.

The other way of course is to go with PTM Race, but this turns off Stabilitrak and you will have to compensate for all and any excessive yaw as a driver with NO HELP FROM A COMPUTER. And if you cant feel it, and/or dont have sufficient skill to correct it, then you will spin out, go off, wreck, total the car, or injure yourself.

That's reality and there are NO SHORT CUTS here. The skill is what separates boys from men on a track and it has little to do with what they are driving. If you think that only light cars excel at twisty tracks wait until a GTR shows up with a good driver You seem to seek some sort of fixed definition of time to develop sufficient skill to drive fast, but no such definition exists. It all depends on one's learning style, level of dedication, mental focus, quality and duration of instruction, self awareness, the car (the faster it is the harder it is to learn on btw), etc.
All i will tell ya with absolute conviction: it will NOT happen in several days even if you have an amazing natural talent. Dont forget most pro stars start the learning process at age of 4 or 6...We will never be pros, but even basic skills take time. Brain needs time to learn.

The first time your car starts to swap ends and you successfully correct it while not losing much pace, or soiling your pants, then youll know you have arrived at another skill level. A level that will now permit you to CONTINUE your education for as long as you track your car. This learning journey should never stop. And that's also what separates an average driver from a very fast driver: continued learning.

The key is to be sufficiently self aware not to let our ambitions exceed our skill levels, lest bad things happen.
Ive seen my share of torn up cars to know this is key. This is particularly evident at an intermediate skill level where a lot of folks think they have already fully arrived and know it all. Usually such attitude ends with a wreck.

As far as street track tires vs slicks. The main difference is that slicks will permit higher cornering speeds, but they have narrower slip angle limits. This means a strèet tire wil let go off a bit sooner but do so more progressively allowing a driver more time for corrections to avoid a spin. A slick will do it at much higher Gs, while the car is cornering faster, but more suddenly, requiring a driver to envoke much faster and skillful correction to avoid a spin. Hence slicks are not a good tire to learn on, as they introduce a higher difficulty environment for a driver and hence a much higher risk.

So...until such time as you can actually feel what each end of the car is telling ya grip wise, and until you can correct excessive yaw as a driver: dont make the learning process any harder than it already is, especially given you have a very fast car.

Now to close it all off: i am 1 hr off your time zone for another week. If you'd like to chat, id be happy to - just PM me. This may be much more productive and effective vs exchanging written words.Also, sending your vid to racers360 would be a good idea, albeit perhaps a wee bit too early. Id hire an in car instructor first.
Cheers!

[GunMetalGrey]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

Id very much think so. Call those guys. Ask what sizes are the most prevalent. Etc. How did your second track day go btw? Signed up for more soon?!

Called both Todd at GTTrackDays and John B, they both said there are no used 19" slicks available, only 18" and they both recommended going with 305/680/18 for about $500 a set.

Called Apex and they said going with EC-7 18x11 front with 25mm offset and 20mm spacers and rear 18x11 with 44mm offset would be the most cost effective option with each wheel costing about $350

[GunMetalGrey]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

That is very much the trap I was referring to in the other thread. Norm

I hear you, just thinking I can kill two stones with one bird (like Chuck Norris) and level the playing field at the same time as I improve my driver skill, we will see how feel about that next year based off my improvements this year.

If I can keep seeing real significant improvements from track session to track session this year with these tires, then I'll probably hold off on switching tires until next year.

On that note, what do you consider to be significant lap time improvements?

One of the instructors told my brother that eventually he could work on taking tenths of seconds off lap times. I'm not sure I have the patience for that.