[bmatt777]

I have a 2019 1ss and I recently bought the Chevy 6 piston performance brake upgrade to replace the 4 pistons that come stock on the 1 SS. However, I was looking at the Z06 earlier and notice that the rear caliper is HUGE and pretty much the same size as the stock 4 piston fronts on the SS. This led me to believe that it might be possible to stick the front calipers on the rear axles on the camaros. Is this actually possible?

A little back story: I recently went out to the track with a fully stock brake setup and experienced brake fade on a 120mph straight. Not fun. I’m going all out on the brakes right now to not have this happen again. I have upgraded the fluid to SRF and I’ve gotten the hawk HP+ pads. Just waiting for the new brake kit to show up now. Any other advice is welcome. I’m new to road courses and definitely looking to make this a real hobby of mine. I’m 100% addicted and my bank account is suffering but it’s all worth it.

[cdb95z28]

No reason to do this. Your issue had nothing to do with rear caliper sizing. While it is slightly possible you may have overheated the rear brakes if you kept all of the nannies on while tracking, the front brakes still do the grunt work by a large margin. By upgrading to the 6 piston fronts, you are copying what the SS 1LE has for the brake system. Except your SS should have come (in the trunk) with a set of very large plastic brake cooling deflectors that are to be used at the track.

Did you have the SS brake cooling deflectors on when you had issues?

You've also already made a large step in the right direction with using SRF.

The Hawk HP+ pads are a downgrade from your stock 4 piston pad material. The stock pad material (Ferodo) is the same material used on the 6 piston setup on the SS 1LE and the even larger 6 piston set up found on the ZL1. Many SS 1LE and ZL1 owners track with the stock pads and stay within the pad's limitations.

There are many variables that contribute to how hard the brake system is being stressed on track. The 6 pistons will help the track use but it can be noted there are many drivers who successfully use a 4 piston setup. Driver technique, cooling, proper DOT4 fluid, pad material, engine power and track layout play a part.

[bmatt777]

Originally Posted by cdb95z28

No reason to do this. Your issue had nothing to do with rear caliper sizing. While it is slightly possible you may have overheated the rear brakes if you kept all of the nannies on while tracking, the front brakes still do the grunt work by a large margin. By upgrading to the 6 piston fronts, you are copying what the SS 1LE has for the brake system. Except your SS should have come (in the trunk) with a set of very large plastic brake cooling deflectors that are to be used at the track.

Did you have the SS brake cooling deflectors on when you had issues?

You've also already made a large step in the right direction with using SRF.

The Hawk HP+ pads are a downgrade from your stock 4 piston pad material. The stock pad material (Ferodo) is the same material used on the 6 piston setup on the SS 1LE and the even larger 6 piston set up found on the ZL1. Many SS 1LE and ZL1 owners track with the stock pads and stay within the pad's limitations.

There are many variables that contribute to how hard the brake system is being stressed on track. The 6 pistons will help the track use but it can be noted there are many drivers who successfully use a 4 piston setup. Driver technique, cooling, proper DOT4 fluid, pad material, engine power and track layout play a part.

I see... I was wondering mainly because I just want as much stopping power as possible even if the fronts take the brunt of it. I figured having more in the rear might help slightly enough to offset some of the stress the front is getting. I didn’t have those cooling deflectors on, however. I have them sitting in my garage so those will most certainly be going on. As far as the pads go, I’ve heard a lot of people “upgraded” to the HP+ pads with the better fluid and never had to deal with fade again. Track layout isn’t necessarily high speed, it’s more of a beginner/technical track, if that makes sense and I’m stock as far as engine power goes (for now).

I’ll just have to see for myself what the HP+ pads do for me. I’m keeping the stock pads that will come with the upgrade kit and they’ll be brand new because I’m just going to go straight into using the hawk pads when I install the new kit.

Thank you for your input btw!

[cdb95z28]

Originally Posted by bmatt777

I see... I was wondering mainly because I just want as much stopping power as possible even if the fronts take the brunt of it. I figured having more in the rear might help slightly enough to offset some of the stress the front is getting. I didn’t have those cooling deflectors on, however. I have them sitting in my garage so those will most certainly be going on. As far as the pads go, I’ve heard a lot of people “upgraded” to the HP+ pads with the better fluid and never had to deal with fade again. Track layout isn’t necessarily high speed, it’s more of a beginner/technical track, if that makes sense and I’m stock as far as engine power goes (for now).

I’ll just have to see for myself what the HP+ pads do for me. I’m keeping the stock pads that will come with the upgrade kit and they’ll be brand new because I’m just going to go straight into using the hawk pads when I install the new kit.

Thank you for your input btw!

Larger front brakes necessarily will not add to the braking power. They will add heat sink capacity, which helps with heat management.

Your SS has an excellent system from the factory. GM did the homework on the front to rear brake bias. No need to re-engineer. Installing the larger 6 piston fronts makes it even better. This essentially gives you the SS 1LE system except possibly the ABS calibration differences, which will not be of any worry to you. Install the 6 pistons, SRF, good pads and those cooling ducts, learn about track braking and the maintenance required to keep things working. Working every single time you press the pedal on track.

The fact that you didn't install the large deflectors will clearly point to the problem. A lack of cooling is going to stress everything beyond the designed limitations. First of which was the OE pads. If you had the deflectors on you may never had a problem. You are lucky to not have had a fluid boiling issue. Did you have the SRF during that track day or is this a recent upgrade?

Read your owners manual and take note of the directions concerning the brakes and track use.

Here is a great library of brake info to get you started:

https://centricparts.com/resources/r...ry=Whitepapers

[bmatt777]

Originally Posted by cdb95z28

Larger front brakes necessarily will not add to the braking power. They will add heat sink capacity, which helps with heat management.

Your SS has an excellent system from the factory. GM did the homework on the front to rear brake bias. No need to re-engineer. Installing the larger 6 piston fronts makes it even better. This essentially gives you the SS 1LE system except possibly the ABS calibration differences, which will not be of any worry to you. Install the 6 pistons, SRF, good pads and those cooling ducts, learn about track braking and the maintenance required to keep things working. Working every single time you press the pedal on track.

The fact that you didn't install the large deflectors will clearly point to the problem. A lack of cooling is going to stress everything beyond the designed limitations. First of which was the OE pads. If you had the deflectors on you may never had a problem. You are lucky to not have had a fluid boiling issue. Did you have the SRF during that track day or is this a recent upgrade?

Read your owners manual and take note of the directions concerning the brakes and track use.

Here is a great library of brake info to get you started:

https://centricparts.com/resources/r...ry=Whitepapers

Oh ok wow thank you for the feedback so far! I really do appreciate everything you’re saying. The SRF is a recent upgrade I didn’t have it while I was tracking the car. I think I did run into fluid boiling because, as I’ve read, the brake pedal will go straight down to the floor when this happens. And there will be little to no grab from the caliper. This is exactly what happened on that straight away. There was barely a pinch coming from the calipers and the brake pedal was as far down as it could go.

With that said, I have the entire brake kit coming in soon, so this will all be upgraded including pads. As I said, the fluid is already in, so we’re good there. I’m definitely going to add the deflectors so they’re there for next time and I’ll check my owners manual for more info that I might be able to grab. Thank you again! I appreciate the advice and the link too I’ll be looking into that as well.

[cdb95z28]

Originally Posted by bmatt777

Oh ok wow thank you for the feedback so far! I really do appreciate everything you’re saying. The SRF is a recent upgrade I didn’t have it while I was tracking the car. I think I did run into fluid boiling because, as I’ve read, the brake pedal will go straight down to the floor when this happens. And there will be little to no grab from the caliper. This is exactly what happened on that straight away. There was barely a pinch coming from the calipers and the brake pedal was as far down as it could go.

With that said, I have the entire brake kit coming in soon, so this will all be upgraded including pads. As I said, the fluid is already in, so we’re good there. I’m definitely going to add the deflectors so they’re there for next time and I’ll check my owners manual for more info that I might be able to grab. Thank you again! I appreciate the advice and the link too I’ll be looking into that as well.

Cool!

There's a chance that you'll run into bleeding issues with installing the new front brakes. You'll get it bled but the pedal will still be soft. This is a normal occurrence. The consensus is trapped air somewhere, either at the ABS module or around the pistons.

A heavy, repeated application of the ABS seems to release this trapped air for further bleeding. Another method to release the trapped air is to have a dealer cycle the ABS solenoids via their OBD2 scan tool. Either method is cycling the ABS solenoids.

I use the self engagement of the ABS on my Gen5 1LE. I do it when there are no cars around and in a safe location in the dry. You want the ABS to engage heavily and do it a few times. Your pedal may soften up even more than it was before you started this. Just be safe and give yourself plenty of room and be aware that your pedal feel is not exactly confidence inspiring. Once you do this, go back and bleed the brakes again. You should get more air out and the pedal should stiffen up. It is possible you would have to do this a second time.

Even with the dealer method, the brakes will need to be bled again.

It does sound like you had boiling. There will be no friction with boiling and the pedal will be soft. With pad fade, the pedal will be stiff and the friction level will be greatly reduced. If you're lucky the pads will fade first, giving you a sign that there is way too much heat or that the pad's heat threshold has been exceeded.

But if you're running race pads with a high heat tolerance, boiling fluid can happen before the pads fade. This is why proper fluid choice and maintenance is critical along with adequate cooling.

[TheRealJA105]

Chad pretty much nailed everything here. I just want to reinforce that the HP+ pads are a downgrade from the stock Ferrodos for the track. Return them if you can.

[cmfhsu]

Not sure about your skill level, but a common mistake for novice / intermediate drivers to make is not hitting the brake pedal hard enough, elongating the braking zone and heating the brakes more than a fast, aggressive brake application.

In this car, you can basically sink your foot through the floor. Push as hard as you can; the ABS system is pretty good. I would hazard to say that if you have enough room to get up to 120, your stock brakes (even the 1SS brakes) should be able to handle repeated stops on track without major fluid fade.

Keep in mind aftermarket (especially track-focused) brake pads may *increase* the brake temperatures being passed through to your fluid. Be careful what you choose and why. The stock pads are great for stock cars even through advanced pace.

[bmatt777]

Originally Posted by TheRealJA105

Chad pretty much nailed everything here. I just want to reinforce that the HP+ pads are a downgrade from the stock Ferrodos for the track. Return them if you can.

I’m curious to know how this is the case. Not arguing, just curious because I’ve seen so many threads on this forum saying that the HP+ pads were the key to better braking (along with SRF or RBF 600). I’m not opposed to returning them lol they were pretty pricy but what is the substance behind why they’re worse than stock? I also think it might be worth noting that I won’t be staying stock for very long. I do have engine mods going on for a little more kick (I know that’s not the whole point for the track). I will also be doing more weight reduction.

[bmatt777]

Originally Posted by cmfhsu

Not sure about your skill level, but a common mistake for novice / intermediate drivers to make is not hitting the brake pedal hard enough, elongating the braking zone and heating the brakes more than a fast, aggressive brake application.

In this car, you can basically sink your foot through the floor. Push as hard as you can; the ABS system is pretty good. I would hazard to say that if you have enough room to get up to 120, your stock brakes (even the 1SS brakes) should be able to handle repeated stops on track without major fluid fade.

Keep in mind aftermarket (especially track-focused) brake pads may *increase* the brake temperatures being passed through to your fluid. Be careful what you choose and why. The stock pads are great for stock cars even through advanced pace.

I’m definitely a novice and that sounds exactly like something I might be doing. I’ll have to play around with my braking next time I’m out and see if I can brake a bit later and harder rather than easing into it.

I see what you’re saying about the brake pads increasing temps passed through to the fluid. Is this the case with the HP+ pads? Is this a major issue if I’m running SRF?

[cdb95z28]

Driver technique definitely plays a part. As does track layout and a bunch of other variables.

The way I see it is, Early braking tends to be long, drawn out episodes that do nothing for the overall health of the brakes. Why? Because the amount of energy expelled in either type of technique is generally the same. Whether it be early, long and easy braking from 130 down to 70 mph or late, shorter and heavier braking from 130 to 70 mph or anything in between. Now it could be noted that the early braking driver probably isn't matching the same straightaway speed of the late braker, so that comparison isn't completely fair. But the time that heat energy has to soak into the braking components is reduced with a late braking. The temp rise is quicker with the late braking but there is less time for the heat to soak into the caliper and fluid before the cooling is ramped up from exit of a corner to the next straightaway. IOW, the race pads can heat things up more quickly, but that heating event tends to be shorter with the later braking techniques that race pads can allow. Either way cooling is critical.

The use of titanium shims is to slow the heat transfer into the pistons>calipers> fluid. Since more heat stays in the pad and rotors we better make sure the pad can handle it. The shims are only of benefit when used with pads that can take on high heat. The goal with titanium shims and vented pistons is to reduce the heat that the caliper and fluid sees. We are keeping more heat within the pad and rotor. But we better have a pad that can still do what it needs to do with that higher heat. And a rotor that has efficient cooling design and superior metallurgy. Do not run titanium shims with the OE pads. They will not like the increased heat and may fade.

High temp fluid is never a bad idea. Except what it can do to your wallet. But excellent fluid is the cheapest insurance you can buy. You should not be boiling SRF as long it is maintained, you have good cooling, and there's nothing crazy wrong with the brakes or the driver. The HP+ pads just do not have the heat capacity that is seen on the track. As Jason said, sending them back would be a good choice.

Late braking is something that can be worked up to. It takes a commitment and you better have your brakes in perfect maintained condition. But if you are a novice, you are better off at getting your lines and the exit and entry correct before you start experimenting with super late braking. Since we established that the lack of cooling was responsible to your brake issues, go back to the fundamentals. Late braking is an advanced level skill. While it is possible that a newer driver can get it done successfully, a new driver should be concentrating on the basics. Get the cooling up to snuff, maintain your fluid, learn about the components and how to recognize potential issues. Don't late brake for the sake of late braking. Your braking points may already be good! Don't let the lack of cooling cause you to re-write your playbook. See what other Camaro guys are doing, talk to them, find out what their ability level is. Watch what markers they are getting on the brakes at. Of course, your instructors will give great guidance.