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Old 08-07-2020, 06:09 PM   #57
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Challenger is a whole different ball game compared to this platform. They use that ANN system. My brother had his Scat Pack tuned for E85 by somebody supposedly reputable in the Dodge community and it wouldn't even hardly idle. I got it dialed in but basically I had to adjust the Injector Fuel Mass vs Pulse Width tables and fix the stoich FA table to get it to run and idle smoot. You can also turn off ANN and tune them via VE like a older LS but ideally you need to have VVT disabled to do that because you will cross the same VE cell at different cam timing events depending on load...so it is almost impossible to dial in. However if I was tuning a cam swapped 6.4 with dod delete and VVT disabled, then I think you could VE tune them fairly easy.
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Old 08-07-2020, 08:00 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by BlueinTN View Post
I read a few of your post and I know what you want.



A really good tuner can get that cam to work. A good friend of mine went thru what your doing tuning his Challenger with a cam from hell. Him tuning himsself never got it to idle below 1000 rpm. he really worked at it.



He finally went to a tuner and I think it was at least 30 revisions but they got it. 650/700 RPM and dead steady idle AC on etc. You can do it with these new style fuel injection controls. His car doesnt have a MAF but they can calculate the air column going thru the motor at idle and get it to work. Wild guess I dont think they look at AF at idle.
I get what you are saying, but I am unlike anyone else. I can obsess over the slightest bump in the driveline that no one else on earth would feel, or sense the slightest different vibration. I am constantly hypervigilantly observing for harsh noises, vibrations, clunks, clangs, and whatever and it really takes the joy away from enjoying the car as I am so bothered by this stuff out of my control.

Anyway, my cam is simply too big, it has too much exhaust revision for combustion stability there is no tuning in the world that would make it idle like stock again.

I remember seeing when the Corvette team announced the C8, there was a presentation they came out with for the LT2. In some of the improvements (which there is a lot of "marketing bs" in even the engineering slideshows) they talked about how they improved idle combustion stability from the LT1. I need to find that and see what they did since I can't remember, it was probably one of the enhancements of the new E90 control system since it uses a wideband now.

It was apparent to me when I first got my Camaro just how rough the stock idle was surprised me. If you read all the SAE papers about the "10 million" or whatever computer aided combustion analysis they did you would think the Camaro would have the best idle in the world, but maybe there is some improvements to be made with the LT1.

Either way my cam is too big and if I could do it over I would try to figure out how to get one that idled better.
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Old 08-07-2020, 08:12 PM   #59
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Who knows what they did (or whether it might just be more "marketing bs") unfortunately, I don't think we may never even see a tune file from a LT2 thanks to encryption on the bus and the new global B architecture. I am not optimistic that there will be a way to flash anything else from now on. The do gooders and their driverless and electric "zero emission" car utopia has put it to a end. Hopefully it means more support for what we have now.
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Old 08-08-2020, 03:04 PM   #60
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Cm your just like him it sounds! he told me he tuned inbetween the tuners tunes..back and forth back and forth. Even he said 30 tunes was a guess. I bet it was way more plus his changes in between. that be 60 by my count.



Side by side it chops like my 440 Chrysler does with and old school cam/carb tuned by me for about 25 years...but with the AC on,no stink,no loading the plugs up etc. He left it running for about 10 mins when we talked last..jumped in and took off..perfect.



I think it runs ANN too.


You got a MAF so you can "see" the air column the answers out there!
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Old 08-08-2020, 06:55 PM   #61
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Cm your just like him it sounds! he told me he tuned inbetween the tuners tunes..back and forth back and forth. Even he said 30 tunes was a guess. I bet it was way more plus his changes in between. that be 60 by my count.



Side by side it chops like my 440 Chrysler does with and old school cam/carb tuned by me for about 25 years...but with the AC on,no stink,no loading the plugs up etc. He left it running for about 10 mins when we talked last..jumped in and took off..perfect.



I think it runs ANN too.


You got a MAF so you can "see" the air column the answers out there!
If you are OCD I don't recommend getting HP Tuners, you will constantly be changing things then changing them back then changing them back again haha Some days you will think one thing works then the next day something else is working, doing it by "feel" isn't a good practice and I don't think a inertia dyno is that much better.
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Old 08-09-2020, 11:42 AM   #62
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I mess with industrial machines and PLC's for a living last thing I want to do is jump in my car to go home and fire up a computer to look at something.


Getting old and lazy...too much thinking


Remind me to tell you the story of my buddy with a 88? mustang bracket racing back in the early nineties..he keep about 20 MAF sensors. One for every weather event. I thought he was crazy back then guess not!
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Old 01-22-2021, 10:03 PM   #63
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I wanted to bring this back up and see what everyone is getting in the winter months? I really want to see what stock displacement NA LT1's with cam and heads are getting? My max went up from about .91 to .95 grams at around 5800-5900 rpms.

I still think this is a lot lower than what I see other people get. However, I also think the numbers you see posted in public are overinflated.
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Old 01-23-2021, 08:39 AM   #64
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Running the pray tune now with my LT2 intake.

The car def runs harder with this tune with this intake

Outside temp was 45* prob -750da
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Old 01-23-2021, 06:33 PM   #65
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Running the pray tune now with my LT2 intake.

The car def runs harder with this tune with this intake

Outside temp was 45* prob -750da
Thanks, looks like your at sea level, lowest DA I can get around here is about 1000ft. It would also be really interesting to see your air density torque multiplier PID, I am not entirely convinced it works like I think it does but I have never seen anyone else log it to confirm. I believe it uses input from MAP/Baro, humidity sensor, and MAF sensor to come up with a factor that I would assume to be normalized to SAE standard correction factor.

I am more and more convinced my cam and ported heads have done basically zero for me except that now I can actually rev my LT1 above 5800 without it completely dropping off.
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Old 01-23-2021, 08:32 PM   #66
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I’ll try to log that pid. as we’ve discussed before, the g/cyl numbers can go up or down based on how you set things up, so hard to get apples to apples. You’re running the original maf curve right?

I also notice that if you fatten up the fuel with PE or maf the g/cyl increases even though it’s making less power
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Old 01-23-2021, 09:27 PM   #67
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Iíll try to log that pid. as weíve discussed before, the g/cyl numbers can go up or down based on how you set things up, so hard to get apples to apples. Youíre running the original maf curve right?

I also notice that if you fatten up the fuel with PE or maf the g/cyl increases even though itís making less power
Yes, I think I am, I may have modified it slightly from feedback from my wideband.

I know most people don't put any faith into the grams/cylinder measurement, but I think given how accurate these engines are at metering the airflow, I trust it way more than I would trust a tooners dyno or what some shop says who is trying to sell you something.
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Old 01-24-2021, 08:06 PM   #68
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So I noticed if I fatten it up the g/cyl increases. I’ve noticed this down to .82 lambda but haven’t really gone fatter than that. Will the g/cyl stop increasing at some point if you keep going fatter and fatter? Has anyone else noticed this?
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Old 01-25-2021, 06:53 PM   #69
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So I noticed if I fatten it up the g/cyl increases. Iíve noticed this down to .82 lambda but havenít really gone fatter than that. Will the g/cyl stop increasing at some point if you keep going fatter and fatter? Has anyone else noticed this?
I've never noticed that, and I have no idea what would cause it. You are taking about when you run it richer you see the airmass increase? Increase by how much?

I believe once you start getting richer by about .8 lambda with ethanol and other highly oxygenated fuels I think it starts displacing air. But obviously this is going the other way and would be decreasing airmass.
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Old 01-25-2021, 07:44 PM   #70
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Yes richer increases g/cyl beyond what’s feasible imo

I will edit this after I look at my logs but off memory I’d lose .03 g/cyl when getting back up to .88 lambda...which seemed significant

Also should note all my logs are 3rd gear m6 pulls
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