Homepage Garage Wiki Register Members List Social Groups Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
#Camaro6
Go Back   CAMARO6 > CAMARO6.com General Forums > 6th gen Camaro vs...


BORLA


Thread Closed
 
Thread Tools
Old 12-13-2017, 07:07 AM   #337
68fbjjz109
 
Drives: 15 GTPP, CUCV Blazer
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Detroit Metro
Posts: 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlaqWhole View Post
LOL, I noticed that a LOT of them were removed. Thanks for cleaning up our forum BTW!! They all must be steaming mad!! I was talking about a certain one who is SS Friendly, lol!!



I'd be my own Trinity, lol!!

I could see them making the GT500 like a better GT350R if they got rid of the garbage FPC engine and those super-expensive CF wheels. That would free up money to actually build a car like they should have in the first place instead of trying to be all fancy and cute. Looking at the original MSRP of the 13 GT500 in comparison to the 13 ZL1, they were almost the same price but just off by a few hundred dollars. So I think they could make a GT500 with more power than the current ZL1 and with similar handling for around the same price. They would probably give it less options tho. But I wonder if they'll target the standard ZL1 price point or the ZL1 1LE price.
I could see the CF wheels staying or if nothing else be an option like the previous SVT TP on the GT500 or what the GT350R is to the GT350. They are only getting cheaper for Ford from a volume consideration, however the images of the Brakes look like a 20" wheel is required for packaging. So it likely wouldn't be the same wheel.

Last edited by 68fbjjz109; 12-13-2017 at 07:17 AM.
68fbjjz109 is offline  
Old 12-13-2017, 09:09 AM   #338
shaffe


 
Drives: 2012 Focus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Burr Ridge
Posts: 3,627
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlaqWhole View Post
LOL, I noticed that a LOT of them were removed. Thanks for cleaning up our forum BTW!! They all must be steaming mad!! I was talking about a certain one who is SS Friendly, lol!!



I'd be my own Trinity, lol!!

I could see them making the GT500 like a better GT350R if they got rid of the garbage FPC engine and those super-expensive CF wheels. That would free up money to actually build a car like they should have in the first place instead of trying to be all fancy and cute. Looking at the original MSRP of the 13 GT500 in comparison to the 13 ZL1, they were almost the same price but just off by a few hundred dollars. So I think they could make a GT500 with more power than the current ZL1 and with similar handling for around the same price. They would probably give it less options tho. But I wonder if they'll target the standard ZL1 price point or the ZL1 1LE price.
I would assume if they want to chase 1LE (which I have said I don't think they can) they will have a GT500 aimed right at the ZL1 and possibly an R version to try and be 1LE like.


Or it will split the difference between them, be better than the ZL1 in 1/4 and twisty for a slightly higher price, but not as good as the Z1LE but at a lower price point, but at this point nobody knows.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by 72MachOne99GT View Post
Lets keep it simple. ..
it has more power...its available power is like a set kof double Ds (no matter where your face is... theyre everywhere) it has the suspension to mame it matter...(
shaffe is online now  
Old 12-13-2017, 09:40 AM   #339
ST1LE


 
ST1LE's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 BMW M3
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Houston
Posts: 2,679
Quote:
Originally Posted by shaffe View Post
I would assume if they want to chase 1LE (which I have said I don't think they can) they will have a GT500 aimed right at the ZL1 and possibly an R version to try and be 1LE like.


Or it will split the difference between them, be better than the ZL1 in 1/4 and twisty for a slightly higher price, but not as good as the Z1LE but at a lower price point, but at this point nobody knows.
That does sound like a winning formula, but it would be a complete shift for this Gen. Currently to get GM performance in a Ford, you have to pay a lot more than GM performance currently costs. The GT350 v 1LE is evidence of that. There is easily a $10K upcharge for the GT350 compared to the equally fast 1LE. I am not saying the GT350 isnt worth its price, thats a convo for another thread. I have a feeling, and the evidence points to the GT500 being $70K+ in base form.

Ford has done some unexpected things in the past, so I admit my logic of basing the future on whats being/been done in this Gen has its flaws. Either way, I think EVERYONE is excited to see what Ford does with the 500 this Gen. It is going to be badass regardless what it costs!!
__________________
SOLD - 2013 1LE - Pat G Spec'd Cam, NPP with 1 7/8" Long Tube Headers with High Flow Cats, Intake w/scoop, Ported Throttle Body, and Apex 1.25" Lowering Springs.
J-Rod Built and Matt@FSP Tuned
ST1LE is offline  
Old 12-13-2017, 09:49 AM   #340
shaffe


 
Drives: 2012 Focus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Burr Ridge
Posts: 3,627
Quote:
Originally Posted by ST1LE View Post
That does sound like a winning formula, but it would be a complete shift for this Gen. Currently to get GM performance in a Ford, you have to pay a lot more than GM performance currently costs. The GT350 v 1LE is evidence of that. There is easily a $10K upcharge for the GT350 compared to the equally fast 1LE. I am not saying the GT350 isnt worth its price, thats a convo for another thread. I have a feeling, and the evidence points to the GT500 being $70K+ in base form.

Ford has done some unexpected things in the past, so I admit my logic of basing the future on whats being/been done in this Gen has its flaws. Either way, I think EVERYONE is excited to see what Ford does with the 500 this Gen. It is going to be badass regardless what it costs!!
All depends on what route they go IMO. If they go just after the ZL1, you can bet that it will be in the same price range. Might be a tad higher, might be around the same. I think Ford knows what the price range for these car is.

Again I go to the 350R and Z/28, Ford set the MSRP of the 350R 12k less than the Z/28, it bested it in head to head comparison on same day same track. Had a engine completely unique to it, carbon fiber wheels, and Ford's first use of Magneride suspension. Some pretty high dollar stuff, and they still undercut the car they built it to go against by 12K.

Now why in the next battle do we think they can't offer similar/better performance for the same/similar dollar amount? Why all of sudden is it there is no way they can do it and the car will have to start in the 70s?



If they go my second route then we will see and all bets are off.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by 72MachOne99GT View Post
Lets keep it simple. ..
it has more power...its available power is like a set kof double Ds (no matter where your face is... theyre everywhere) it has the suspension to mame it matter...(
shaffe is online now  
Old 12-13-2017, 10:52 AM   #341
SuperSound


 
SuperSound's Avatar
 
Drives: '17 Camaro 2SS A8
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Eastern NC
Posts: 5,042
Quote:
Originally Posted by shaffe View Post
All depends on what route they go IMO. If they go just after the ZL1, you can bet that it will be in the same price range. Might be a tad higher, might be around the same. I think Ford knows what the price range for these car is.

Again I go to the 350R and Z/28, Ford set the MSRP of the 350R 12k less than the Z/28, it bested it in head to head comparison on same day same track. Had a engine completely unique to it, carbon fiber wheels, and Ford's first use of Magneride suspension. Some pretty high dollar stuff, and they still undercut the car they built it to go against by 12K.

Now why in the next battle do we think they can't offer similar/better performance for the same/similar dollar amount? Why all of sudden is it there is no way they can do it and the car will have to start in the 70s?



If they go my second route then we will see and all bets are off.
Well think about it like this, the base ZL1 undercuts the GT350R and performs better in all aspects. So now Ford has to undercut a ZL1 but perform better than their GT350R in handling? That's a tall order. I think more than likely we will see the GT500 with similar base price, better straight line but no improvement in handling for the base car (compared to GT350R). An R package might improve the handling enough to best the base ZL1, but will cost more. Ford might just undercut the ZL1 1LE's price at that point, but accept a similar handling gap as the ZL1 is versus the GT350R.
__________________
Current: '17 2SS Hyper Blue, A8, MRC, NPP
Past: '99 SS Camaro A4, '73 Camaro 383 A3

"Voices in your head are not considered insider information."

3800 Status - 6/16/16 (Built!)
6000 status - 6/29/16 (Delivered!)
SuperSound is offline  
Old 12-13-2017, 11:01 AM   #342
ST1LE


 
ST1LE's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 BMW M3
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Houston
Posts: 2,679
Quote:
Originally Posted by shaffe View Post
All depends on what route they go IMO. If they go just after the ZL1, you can bet that it will be in the same price range. Might be a tad higher, might be around the same. I think Ford knows what the price range for these car is.

Again I go to the 350R and Z/28, Ford set the MSRP of the 350R 12k less than the Z/28, it bested it in head to head comparison on same day same track. Had a engine completely unique to it, carbon fiber wheels, and Ford's first use of Magneride suspension. Some pretty high dollar stuff, and they still undercut the car they built it to go against by 12K.

Now why in the next battle do we think they can't offer similar/better performance for the same/similar dollar amount? Why all of sudden is it there is no way they can do it and the car will have to start in the 70s?



If they go my second route then we will see and all bets are off.
Well, I am not sure that is the most appropriate comparison. We are not even talking the same Gen when we look at Z28 v GT350R. R has no DSSV dampers, which are WAY more expensive than mag ride. Carbon ceramic breaks etc. The Z28 was an attempt to take that dated platform as far as it could go, and being as dated as it was it required massive tech to accomplish this.

The GT350R was designed ground up on a more sophisticated chassis. I just do not see a reason this argument is so important to the Mustang guys. I know for some weird reason Ford decided to chase an extinct car with the R, but that doesn't make it legit in any world but Ford World.

We're talking Gen 6 here, so what GM did on Gen 5 and how much it cost Ford to chase an extinct Gen 5 car isnt relevant in discussions on what it will cost Ford to chase an in production car like the 6th gen ZL1 or the ZL1 1LE.

So that is why I dont see them doing it for less than $70K. This time they are deciding(yet to see) to be competitive in the existing Generation and that is, for obvious reasons, more difficult than trying to compete with the last generation thats no longer in production.

In my opinion, chasing the Z28 with their new platform was low hanging fruit, that really only impressed the Blue Oval guys. We are no longer talking Gen 6 v Gen 5 comparisons, everyone else had already moved on from the Gen 5 Z28 by then.
__________________
SOLD - 2013 1LE - Pat G Spec'd Cam, NPP with 1 7/8" Long Tube Headers with High Flow Cats, Intake w/scoop, Ported Throttle Body, and Apex 1.25" Lowering Springs.
J-Rod Built and Matt@FSP Tuned
ST1LE is offline  
Old 12-13-2017, 11:27 AM   #343
SpeedIsLife


 
Drives: Current Camaro-less
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Oregon
Posts: 3,063
Quote:
Originally Posted by ST1LE View Post
In my opinion, chasing the Z28 with their new platform was low hanging fruit, that really only impressed the Blue Oval guys. We are no longer talking Gen 6 v Gen 5 comparisons, everyone else had already moved on from the Gen 5 Z28 by then.
So I didn't read Z/28 vs GT350R comparisons by the magazines?

Seems like they hadn't moved on.
SpeedIsLife is online now  
Old 12-13-2017, 11:45 AM   #344
shaffe


 
Drives: 2012 Focus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Burr Ridge
Posts: 3,627
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperSound View Post
Well think about it like this, the base ZL1 undercuts the GT350R and performs better in all aspects. So now Ford has to undercut a ZL1 but perform better than their GT350R in handling? That's a tall order. I think more than likely we will see the GT500 with similar base price, better straight line but no improvement in handling for the base car (compared to GT350R). An R package might improve the handling enough to best the base ZL1, but will cost more. Ford might just undercut the ZL1 1LE's price at that point, but accept a similar handling gap as the ZL1 is versus the GT350R.
To spin your argument against you then, GM was able to do it why can't Ford? I just don't think Ford would build this car and price it higher if it doesn't perform better/similar.
Also Ford has never had a problem releasing a much better performing car the next year for not much more money. The 13 GT500 was significantly faster than the 12 and the MSRP difference was only 1k

Now if the base car can't match the handling of the ZL1 and requires an R version that only matches base Z at Z1LE price, that IMO would be a total failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by ST1LE View Post
Well, I am not sure that is the most appropriate comparison. We are not even talking the same Gen when we look at Z28 v GT350R. R has no DSSV dampers, which are WAY more expensive than mag ride. Carbon ceramic breaks etc. The Z28 was an attempt to take that dated platform as far as it could go, and being as dated as it was it required massive tech to accomplish this.

The GT350R was designed ground up on a more sophisticated chassis. I just do not see a reason this argument is so important to the Mustang guys. I know for some weird reason Ford decided to chase an extinct car with the R, but that doesn't make it legit in any world but Ford World.

We're talking Gen 6 here, so what GM did on Gen 5 and how much it cost Ford to chase an extinct Gen 5 car isnt relevant in discussions on what it will cost Ford to chase an in production car like the 6th gen ZL1 or the ZL1 1LE.

So that is why I dont see them doing it for less than $70K. This time they are deciding(yet to see) to be competitive in the existing Generation and that is, for obvious reasons, more difficult than trying to compete with the last generation thats no longer in production.

In my opinion, chasing the Z28 with their new platform was low hanging fruit, that really only impressed the Blue Oval guys. We are no longer talking Gen 6 v Gen 5 comparisons, everyone else had already moved on from the Gen 5 Z28 by then.
The R also had Carbon Fiber Wheels, and a FPC engine built specifically for the 350. It didn't have the advantage of having an engine already sitting around. It also has unique front end. Both cars had their own list of pretty specific high dollar go fast goodies.

And the reason it keeps getting brought up, is because that is why the car was built.

You can sure as hell bet that there will be comparisons with the new ZR1 to the ACR, which is also no longer built. Now a magazine might not do it but the ACR will certainly be a benchmark the ZR1 is measured against.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by 72MachOne99GT View Post
Lets keep it simple. ..
it has more power...its available power is like a set kof double Ds (no matter where your face is... theyre everywhere) it has the suspension to mame it matter...(

Last edited by shaffe; 12-13-2017 at 11:58 AM.
shaffe is online now  
Old 12-13-2017, 12:09 PM   #345
DevilsReject97
Nightmare
 
DevilsReject97's Avatar
 
Drives: Your mom crazy in bed
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Naptown
Posts: 1,754
Quote:
Originally Posted by shaffe View Post
To spin your argument against you then, GM was able to do it why can't Ford?
Unlike GM, Ford already created a mess by adding the 350 into the mix. That put another car inbetween the GT and the GT500, which just increases cost. I don't think you'll see a cheap GT500...or you will see a Hellcat competitor designed for straight line only...



Quote:
Originally Posted by shaffe View Post
You can sure as hell bet that there will be comparisons with the new ZR1 to the ACR, which is also no longer built. Now a magazine might not do it but the ACR will certainly be a benchmark the ZR1 is measured against.
They haven't compared any of the most recent Corvettes to the ACR in a few years now. In fact, they were comparing the ZL1 1LE to the ACR just recently. GM has been targeting Porsche and Lamborghini for years now with their level of performance.

And the only benchmark that the ZR1 will be compared to will be a sub 7 min Ring time..
__________________
DevilsReject97 is offline  
Old 12-13-2017, 12:16 PM   #346
shaffe


 
Drives: 2012 Focus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Burr Ridge
Posts: 3,627
Quote:
Originally Posted by DevilsReject97 View Post
Unlike GM, Ford already created a mess by adding the 350 into the mix. That put another car inbetween the GT and the GT500, which just increases cost. I don't think you'll see a cheap GT500...or you will see a Hellcat competitor designed for straight line only...





They haven't compared any of the most recent Corvettes to the ACR in a few years now. In fact, they were comparing the ZL1 1LE to the ACR just recently. GM has been targeting Porsche and Lamborghini for years now with their level of performance.

And the only benchmark that the ZR1 will be compared to will be a sub 7 min Ring time..
Even if it is a Hellcat competitor, then it will need to be at Hellcat pricing....which is at ZL1 price levels. And I think the 350 will be done by the time the 500 is being produced. I don't expect them to be produced side by side.

http://www.motortrend.com/news/2015-...2-head-wvideo/

This was last year.... January 2016 MotorTrend head 2 head Z06 VS ACR.

TopGear even did one early last year Z06, ACR and 350R




And I could be completely wrong on the price part. I just don't see Ford offering a lesser performing car for a much higher price point.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by 72MachOne99GT View Post
Lets keep it simple. ..
it has more power...its available power is like a set kof double Ds (no matter where your face is... theyre everywhere) it has the suspension to mame it matter...(
shaffe is online now  
Old 12-13-2017, 12:19 PM   #347
ST1LE


 
ST1LE's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 BMW M3
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Houston
Posts: 2,679
Quote:
Originally Posted by shaffe View Post
To spin your argument against you then, GM was able to do it why can't Ford? I just don't think Ford would build this car and price it higher if it doesn't perform better/similar.
Also Ford has never had a problem releasing a much better performing car the next year for not much more money. The 13 GT500 was significantly faster than the 12 and the MSRP difference was only 1k

Now if the base car can't match the handling of the ZL1 and requires an R version that only matches base Z at Z1LE price, that IMO would be a total failure



The R also had Carbon Fiber Wheels, and a FPC engine built specifically for the 350. It didn't have the advantage of having an engine already sitting around. It also has unique front end. Both cars had their own list of pretty specific high dollar go fast goodies.

And the reason it keeps getting brought up, is because that is why the car was built.

You can sure as hell bet that there will be comparisons with the new ZR1 to the ACR, which is also no longer built. Now a magazine might not do it but the ACR will certainly be a benchmark the ZR1 is measured against.
Yeah, you're absolutely right.
__________________
SOLD - 2013 1LE - Pat G Spec'd Cam, NPP with 1 7/8" Long Tube Headers with High Flow Cats, Intake w/scoop, Ported Throttle Body, and Apex 1.25" Lowering Springs.
J-Rod Built and Matt@FSP Tuned
ST1LE is offline  
Old 12-13-2017, 12:21 PM   #348
SuperSound


 
SuperSound's Avatar
 
Drives: '17 Camaro 2SS A8
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Eastern NC
Posts: 5,042
Quote:
Originally Posted by shaffe View Post
To spin your argument against you then, GM was able to do it why can't Ford? I just don't think Ford would build this car and price it higher if it doesn't perform better/similar.
Also Ford has never had a problem releasing a much better performing car the next year for not much more money. The 13 GT500 was significantly faster than the 12 and the MSRP difference was only 1k

Now if the base car can't match the handling of the ZL1 and requires an R version that only matches base Z at Z1LE price, that IMO would be a total failure
The key there, GM went to a new generation with a new platform and powertrain. The current ZL1 bests the Z/28. GM didn't have to use DSSV, an expensive LS7, and CCBs to do it. Hence why they were able to do it for less. The weight savings from Alpha and LT4 made that happen.

Ford didn't build the GT350 to compete with an unknown car (i.e. 6th gen ZL1), they built it to undercut the Z/28. It didn't really vastly exceed the Z/28's performance either. So it's not as big as feat as you are suggesting with a GT500 on the same platform as the GT350 but significantly better handling, power, for a cheaper price. If Ford was bringing out the GT500 on a completely new gen/platform...there might be ways to cut cost some.

As it stands, I would bet on Ford to follow their GT350 formula (i.e. have multiple packages). A base car that is faster than any ZL1 in the 1/4, a track pack that can put it on equal footing with the ZL1 around a track, and a R package designed to be competitive with the ZL1 1LE. That last one will be the tough one to do with staying under MSRP. The S550 is just too heavy. Weight reduction is prohibitively expensive with existing cars, and it helps more in track times than anything. And it will be especially hard to save weight on the GT500 with a blown 5.2L and be under $70K.

The sad reality is no matter if they match or beat prices of the ZL1, they will still cost more thanks to asshats paying ADM. And since Ford is unwilling/unable to do anything about that, pressure to keep the price lower will probably lose out to them wanting to beat the ZL1 in performance.
__________________
Current: '17 2SS Hyper Blue, A8, MRC, NPP
Past: '99 SS Camaro A4, '73 Camaro 383 A3

"Voices in your head are not considered insider information."

3800 Status - 6/16/16 (Built!)
6000 status - 6/29/16 (Delivered!)
SuperSound is offline  
Old 12-13-2017, 12:23 PM   #349
ST1LE


 
ST1LE's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 BMW M3
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Houston
Posts: 2,679
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpeedIsLife View Post
So I didn't read Z/28 vs GT350R comparisons by the magazines?

Seems like they hadn't moved on.
HAHAHAHAHA.....let's not muddy this conversation by bringing in what magazines do, considering they get money to compare things and have a LONG history of comparing cars they should never compare. Auto v Manual, Mustang v Porsche, etc.
__________________
SOLD - 2013 1LE - Pat G Spec'd Cam, NPP with 1 7/8" Long Tube Headers with High Flow Cats, Intake w/scoop, Ported Throttle Body, and Apex 1.25" Lowering Springs.
J-Rod Built and Matt@FSP Tuned
ST1LE is offline  
Old 12-13-2017, 12:25 PM   #350
shaffe


 
Drives: 2012 Focus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Burr Ridge
Posts: 3,627
Quote:
Originally Posted by ST1LE View Post
Yeah, you're absolutely right.
Can't tell if serious or sarcasm lol

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperSound View Post
The key there, GM went to a new generation with a new platform and powertrain. The current ZL1 bests the Z/28. GM didn't have to use DSSV, an expensive LS7, and CCBs to do it. Hence why they were able to do it for less. The weight savings from Alpha and LT4 made that happen.

Ford didn't build the GT350 to compete with an unknown car (i.e. 6th gen ZL1), they built it to undercut the Z/28. It didn't really vastly exceed the Z/28's performance either. So it's not as big as feat as you are suggesting with a GT500 on the same platform as the GT350 but significantly better handling, power, for a cheaper price. If Ford was bringing out the GT500 on a completely new gen/platform...there might be ways to cut cost some.

As it stands, I would bet on Ford to follow their GT350 formula (i.e. have multiple packages). A base car that is faster than any ZL1 in the 1/4, a track pack that can put it on equal footing with the ZL1 around a track, and a R package designed to be competitive with the ZL1 1LE. That last one will be the tough one to do with staying under MSRP. The S550 is just too heavy. Weight reduction is prohibitively expensive with existing cars, and it helps more in track times than anything. And it will be especially hard to save weight on the GT500 with a blown 5.2L and be under $70K.

The sad reality is no matter if they match or beat prices of the ZL1, they will still cost more thanks to asshats paying ADM. And since Ford is unwilling/unable to do anything about that, pressure to keep the price lower will probably lose out to them wanting to beat the ZL1 in performance.

All valid points. I think to counter the weight, they are going to throw more power at it. I think that is what will help them beat it straightline and keep it close/similar/possibly beat it in the twistys. And I think they will find a way to have it at a similar price point. probably will be a bit higher, but I just don't see a base GT500 starting at Z1LE prices.

And this debate is all in good fun gents

Helping pass the time during slow season at the office.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by 72MachOne99GT View Post
Lets keep it simple. ..
it has more power...its available power is like a set kof double Ds (no matter where your face is... theyre everywhere) it has the suspension to mame it matter...(
shaffe is online now  
 
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:07 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.