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Old 02-08-2010, 02:51 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brokinarrow View Post
hmmm... so going off this, a 'platform' is basically a standard group of equipment that a vehicle can be built upon? for example: same breaks, suspension, power train, frame material etc.

-edit- ah, fenwick posted RIGHT before me heheh
Basically. Take the GMT-900 platform. GM builds the GMC Sierra, Chevrolet Silverado, GMC Yukon/Yukon XL, Chevrolet Tahoe/Suburban, Chevrolet Avalanche, Cadillac Escalade/Escalade EXT/Escalade ESV all off one platform.

Platforms make it easier to engineer cars across a wide range of brands or even within a brand itself. For example, GM's next-generation Two-Mode Hybrid system is finally going into RWD cars. As such, the Cadillac ATS and CTS will most likely have hybrid models available as both will be built off the same platform.
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Old 02-08-2010, 03:07 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by sen10l View Post
Okay, I get that a frame can be made lighter with better materials and better engineering, but I don't get the part about the alpha platform being smaller.

What I mean is, if the alpha platform is smaller, it means that there is less cabin room and trunk space too right? Is that the problem with the Zeta?

The reason I'm confused is that I don't think the Camaro is that big in the cabin in the first place. Unlike the Challenger, it can't sit 5. It can barely sit 4, so doesn't it mean that moving to the alpha platform will mean even less cabin space?

Also another thing I'm confused with is: will the alpha platform enable better outward visibility without changing its looks? I mean: if the 5th gen Camaro were to have come out on the alpha platform, would it have looked basically the same but with more outward visibility? Maybe it's a silly question, but one person made the comment was that the alpha platform was such a huge improvement over the zeta platform, and I'm wondering what exactly might that mean.

To summarize:
1) I get it's smaller and lighter. Question: is that all the benefit? Will it mean less cabin space? If not, how can it have the same cabin space?

2) will outward visibility improve, or has that got nothing to do with the platform?

Thanks!
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Originally Posted by sen10l View Post
That's the part I don't get. I think of "platform" as some sort of frame design and layout for the drive train. It determines the length, width and wheelbase of the car.

That's why I'm confused how a platform can be smaller and yet the size remain the same?
A platform isn't a chassis that you bolt everything else onto. In fact, if you look at the structure of a G8 and a Camaro, they look nothing alike. Yet they're both on the same platform.

The term 'platform' refers to the basic organization of a vehicle and its approximate limitations. Its a set of variables that can be tweaked, but not changed dramatically. Each one has a certain range. A platform can have a wheelbase between A and B, overall length of C-D, width between E and F, height of G-H, engine torque of I, suspension setup J, drive configuration K, etc.

Currently, the Camaro is technically classed as a compact car while its based off of a full size sedan. The same is true of the Challenger. These cars are at the bottom end of the size limits for their respective platforms. If the Camaro were to switch to a smaller platform yet were moved towards the larger end of it it could remain about the same size as it is today, maybe a little smaller. But certain structural design elements could be removed because they aren't needed for the smaller platform, thus saving weight.

And if it does shrink, some of that reduction will be felt inside, but you can lose width and it won't matter much in a 2+2. A shorter wheelbase might bring the rear wheels closer to the back seat (vs bringing the rear seat closer to the front) and therefore have minimal intrusion on interior space. Height ... I don't think it will get any lower than it is now so thats not an issue.
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Old 02-08-2010, 04:56 PM   #17
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what are some of the things that could be removed from the zeta platform that aren't necessary on the alpha platform? (educated guess?)

thanks everyone for the great education!
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Old 02-08-2010, 05:43 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by sen10l View Post
what are some of the things that could be removed from the zeta platform that aren't necessary on the alpha platform? (educated guess?)

thanks everyone for the great education!
Nothing would be specifically removed. Zeta isn't a weak chassis thats been beefed up and therefore allowing pieces to be removed. It was engineered to be what it is. A smaller design is inherently stronger, so you can get away with using less steel to achieve the same structural strength.
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Old 02-08-2010, 06:34 PM   #19
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"Platform" in the auto industry is just the underbody which holds the suspension and all the the structural stiffness. A company can change a platform in wheelbase and width to place different upperbodies on it. This is how they can share platforms. I wouldn't worry about styling. The platform approach is very flexible. FYI. I work for automotive in engineering.
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Old 02-09-2010, 12:45 AM   #20
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I read Alpha will have the same wheelbase,but body will be 1 foot shorter.
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Old 02-09-2010, 11:08 AM   #21
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what will be 1 foot shorter, the car (Camaro) or the "platform"?

If the platform is one foot shorter, I can't imagine what is being "cut off". Is it some excess redundant bit of frame? I know that's silly, but I can't imagine in my head what is being "removed" to reduce the length by 1 foot.
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Old 02-09-2010, 11:18 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sen10l View Post
what will be 1 foot shorter, the car (Camaro) or the "platform"?

If the platform is one foot shorter, I can't imagine what is being "cut off". Is it some excess redundant bit of frame? I know that's silly, but I can't imagine in my head what is being "removed" to reduce the length by 1 foot.
If you reduce the platform by 1 ft, you reduce the car by 1 ft. The reduced length would come from shorter front and rear overhangs. There isn't a frame to chop up. The Alpha platform isn't just a modified Zeta with bits and pieces hacked up. If the Camaro changes platforms, it will be a different car. It will be a 6th gen.
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Old 02-09-2010, 03:04 PM   #23
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Thanks for your patience.

Now the question: what are "overhangs"? Are they "useless" empty space in the car body (such as empty space in the engine compartment?), OR will removing overhangs entail reducing trunk space or some other sacrifice?

Thanks!
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Old 02-09-2010, 03:27 PM   #24
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the "overhang" is referring to whatever hangs outside the rectangle created by the wheelbase. So everything forward of the front wheels and back from the back wheels. if you look at some of the newer bmw's like the z4 for instance, there's not much hanging out forward or backward over the wheels. so it has a very small overhang. Imagine it this way if you glued all 4 wheels to the ground you have the same wheelbase. then you push the bumpers in closer to the wheels, that's probably what the gen6 will look like.

pushing the wheels to the extreme corners of the body helps handling and weight distribution immensely. there is less "swinging" effect of an outside weight. If you can keep all the weight of the vehicle inside the wheelbase (preferably down the centerline) you automatically have a much easier time making the handling more predictable and sharper in alot of cases.
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Old 02-09-2010, 05:31 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wylde1 View Post
the "overhang" is referring to whatever hangs outside the rectangle created by the wheelbase. So everything forward of the front wheels and back from the back wheels. if you look at some of the newer bmw's like the z4 for instance, there's not much hanging out forward or backward over the wheels. so it has a very small overhang. Imagine it this way if you glued all 4 wheels to the ground you have the same wheelbase. then you push the bumpers in closer to the wheels, that's probably what the gen6 will look like.
Couldn't have said it better myself ... so I'll provide pictures:

Consider the 1969 Dodge Charger:

Notice how the nose and tail extend quite a bit past the wheels? Now, compare that against the Z4 that wylde mentioned:

Granted, its a much smaller car overall. But there is clearly less in front and much less out back

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pushing the wheels to the extreme corners of the body helps handling and weight distribution immensely. there is less "swinging" effect of an outside weight. If you can keep all the weight of the vehicle inside the wheelbase (preferably down the centerline) you automatically have a much easier time making the handling more predictable and sharper in alot of cases.
That is correct for a mid engined car. However, for a front engine car, having weight out past the rear axle counteracts the weight up front, resulting in a more balanced car (yet increases its polar moment). But that is a discussion for another time
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Old 02-10-2010, 12:08 AM   #26
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thanks, but I understand that part. I understand if the length of the car remained the same, and you simply moved the wheels further out then the dynamics will improve.

but if you simply "chop" off the overhangs, you can see that the engine compartment space will be reduced and the trunk space will be reduced. Is that what we expect to happen? In other words, perhaps the engine in the C6 will be smaller to allow the reduction of 1 foot of length? If so, it's not just a "platform change" that will reduce the weight, it will also require a smaller engine right?
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Old 02-10-2010, 12:50 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by sen10l View Post
thanks, but I understand that part. I understand if the length of the car remained the same, and you simply moved the wheels further out then the dynamics will improve.

but if you simply "chop" off the overhangs, you can see that the engine compartment space will be reduced and the trunk space will be reduced. Is that what we expect to happen? In other words, perhaps the engine in the C6 will be smaller to allow the reduction of 1 foot of length? If so, it's not just a "platform change" that will reduce the weight, it will also require a smaller engine right?
The engine wouldn't be made smaller (by the way, C6 typically refers to the current Corvette). With less space up front, the engine would likely move back relative to the front axle, which would help weight distribution greatly. However, if you take a good look, the front of the engine in the Camaro is currently just ahead of the axle. There is a lot of space in front of it so moving the engine may not be needed at all, or if it does it would only be maybe an inch or two. .

The trunk on the other hand, expect it to get smaller.
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Old 02-10-2010, 11:27 AM   #28
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The engine wouldn't be made smaller (by the way, C6 typically refers to the current Corvette). With less space up front, the engine would likely move back relative to the front axle, which would help weight distribution greatly. However, if you take a good look, the front of the engine in the Camaro is currently just ahead of the axle. There is a lot of space in front of it so moving the engine may not be needed at all, or if it does it would only be maybe an inch or two. .

The trunk on the other hand, expect it to get smaller.
the problem is, I don't have my Camaro yet. What I hear you saying though, is that there is some empty space in front of the engine and that space could be "removed" to accommodate the shorter length?
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