[Dustya]

Okay guys here is the latest update. After installing the dual nozzle versus single nozzle meth setup putting the 12lb pulley on Full E85... The tuning began.. Sadly I could not be present this time. However I was kept in the loop the entire time at first we were losing fuel pressure on the rail but running super rich. So how can you run RICH and Lose fuel pressure.. Well the computer doesnt regulate for methanol fueling so it sees all that air coming in and its compensating with fuel - This tells us one major thing @ 12lb of boost on the overkill supercharger setup you CANNOT run E85 the HPFP cannot handle it. However the methanol is a great way to supplement the fuel you need so we kept pulling fuel more and more until our fuel rails stayed steady at 2970-3000 psi.

This dyno was a pretty heated run the last run of the night in fact and you can see the torque maxes out @ 6k RPM right around 380.. Which seems a bit low and I think we might be meeting constraints of the torque converter.. As on 10lb and 93 we were running about 350 torque.

There is more room this is a very safe conservative tune and I believe capable of close to 500 whp.. But with the huge drivetrain loss we see in our cars 20% give or take a few % with 460rwhp puts the crank HP around 560-580.. Which is absolutely nuts if we can find a way to deliver the power to the wheels more efficiently like the v8 it would be insane.

So now before the math arguments are made I am basing the above number purely on stock dyno pulls average is 240-260.. with our supposed 335 crank hp from the factory take 20% away from 335 = 268 HP.. I have yet to see a stock dyno of 268 HP.. Our drive train loss on these cars is crazy or GM lied about the true crank numbers.

Going to the track tonight test and tune with a tire on it .. should be fun!

[KMPrenger]

Impressive number....congrats.

Yeah...even in the 5th gen days, it seemed like 20%+ was the norm we'd see on most dynos. Yes dynos shouldn't be taken as gospel, and are best used as a tuning tool for before/after comparisons. But, it was pretty much the norm that we'd see numbers at 20% or less than the "advertised" crank power for these V6 engines.

GM says its 335, so I can only believe what they say, but it is disappointing when no stock cars are dynoing where you'd think they should, yet the V8 (with its beefier, but still current 8 speed auto) is dynoing where you'd expect, or higher. I never understood any reason as to why the drivetrain the V6 would be any less efficient.

We have yet to see how well the 8 speed can handle torque on these boosted I4 and V6 cars, but the older 6 speed in the 5th gen was a beast.

[Nsxmatt]

Originally Posted by Dustya

So now before the math arguments are made I am basing the above number purely on stock dyno pulls average is 240-260.. with our supposed 335 crank hp from the factory take 20% away from 335 = 268 HP.. I have yet to see a stock dyno of 268 HP.. Our drive train loss on these cars is crazy or GM lied about the true crank numbers.

I just think these cars don't dyno well. Either with the front wheels being stationary the cars cut power or something. Because the track times and trap speed I ran bone stock and others have are right in line with about 265whp.

[Dustya]

Originally Posted by Nsxmatt

I just think these cars don't dyno well. Either with the front wheels being stationary the cars cut power or something. Because the track times and trap speed I ran bone stock and others have are right in line with about 265whp.

With the known issues of the a8 torque converter I wouldnt be suprised if we arent getting bad numbers due to lock time etc.. where on the track the car has more time to lock in and send the power down and keep it there where as on the dyno its just one quick big pull.. One huge sign is only a gain of 20 rear torque moving up to 12.5lbs versus 10.5 and e85 over 93.. The horsepower gains are there but the torque is lost we are still trying to figure out why.

I would like to see one of these kits on a manual see how the numbers differ

[Jason@JacFab]

I guess I don't understand the torque converter theory? Can't lock fast enough on a dyno, but ok on the track?

In theory, by the time you get to speed, in the proper gear for the dyno pull, the converter should already be locked? Depends on the tune I guess. But you should be able to lock it before you start acquiring the dyno data for a run.

Or are you making so much power that the TCC is slipping?

[DSX_Camaro]

Yeah, what gear are you dynoing in and is the converter locked? Good numbers but still

[Nsxmatt]

Originally Posted by Jason@JacFab

I guess I don't understand the torque converter theory? Can't lock fast enough on a dyno, but ok on the track?

In theory, by the time you get to speed, in the proper gear for the dyno pull, the converter should already be locked? Depends on the tune I guess. But you should be able to lock it before you start acquiring the dyno data for a run.

Or are you making so much power that the TCC is slipping?

Load on a dyno varies. A dynojet is only a 2000lb roller so a light converter or computer controlled may not fully lock on a single gear pull especially if the computer is adjusting Tq because the front wheels aren't moving.

[cellsafemode]

focussing on the absolute dyno numbers is not the point.

it's literally only useful for comparing before and after on itself.

The only comparable numbers that matter are 0-N and N-0 and distance/lap times.

Not much point in caring if the dyno says 10% lower than what you believe it should be if its performance on the road is right in alignment with what it should be. And i believe it is - getting close if not matching the Ls1 camaro in speed (0-60 and 1/4 mile) which had a 335hp V8 and weighed nearly the same as the 6th gen lgx does.. I think the dyno is just not playing nicely with the A8 transmission (note the LT trims dont get the same A8 that the V8's get, just an fyi).

[Dustya]

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

focussing on the absolute dyno numbers is not the point.

it's literally only useful for comparing before and after on itself.

The only comparable numbers that matter are 0-N and N-0 and distance/lap times.

Not much point in caring if the dyno says 10% lower than what you believe it should be if its performance on the road is right in alignment with what it should be. And i believe it is - getting close if not matching the Ls1 camaro in speed (0-60 and 1/4 mile) which had a 335hp V8 and weighed nearly the same as the 6th gen lgx does.. I think the dyno is just not playing nicely with the A8 transmission (note the LT trims dont get the same A8 that the V8's get, just an fyi).

focusing on dyno numbers is very important when you are trying to stay within certain limits...I cant take it on the road and go yup feels like 600hp If 22% drivetrain loss is what im evaluating it on I don't want to take the engine any farther then it is right now. So its not just useful for the comparison but figuring out other things as well...

I am aware of the different transmissions and also aware of the failure that the torque converter is in the 8l45 aside from shutter issues.. if I am losing 8% more power to the wheels cuz of a shitty transmission at some point could be the single biggest upgrade.

There is no what I believe it should be, there is only what it is... and as I stated earlier if I am calculating based on stock dyno pull drivetrain loss valued by the 335 hp GM claims the crank HP to be then im done for now until I get forged rods and pistons.

[Dustya]

Originally Posted by Jason@JacFab

I guess I don't understand the torque converter theory? Can't lock fast enough on a dyno, but ok on the track?

In theory, by the time you get to speed, in the proper gear for the dyno pull, the converter should already be locked? Depends on the tune I guess. But you should be able to lock it before you start acquiring the dyno data for a run.

Or are you making so much power that the TCC is slipping?

SO stock TCM tune people are claiming from logs the 8l45 is not fully locking until your in a solid 4th gear pull and even in part of 4th gear its not fully locked.. this is just information gathered from cadillac forums mostly CT6 cars that have had so many issues with the 8l45 and its torque converter..

I did get the beta for hp tuners and removed the slip across the table but am not well versed with the TCM tuning and not something we had time to get into.. The cars drives and feel great 0 knock or misfires and pulls like a beast so we are leaving it here for now gonna get to the track and run it get the feel for it and in 8 weeks when my forged rods and pistons are here and I get a 14lb pulley we will be tuning again.. Eventually this Torque converter is going to give I will log some hard acceleration and look for slipping.

You guys have to remember everyone is still learning these cars especially the v6 with its standalone ECU so its seems easy to be like hey do this do that but when you are focusing on learning something while trying to make it the best it can be its very time consuming. I am just lucky enough I have some people close by that are excited to learn with me.

[WideTrx]

Here are my dyno runs on a completely stock 2017 A8, no tune, no CAI, stock exhaust (non-npp). Notice the nosedive once it hits the speed limiter in 5th gear at only 7K RPM, so it could have eeked out a few more HP. Running pump 93 octane. I was getting 285 at the wheels.

[Kenny Camaro]

Every dyno is its own animal. There all different, even the same models. That’s why there is wildly different numbers on stock pulls.

[BOYD3800SII]

Originally Posted by Dustya

SO stock TCM tune people are claiming from logs the 8l45 is not fully locking until your in a solid 4th gear pull and even in part of 4th gear its not fully locked.. this is just information gathered from cadillac forums mostly CT6 cars that have had so many issues with the 8l45 and its torque converter..

I did get the beta for hp tuners and removed the slip across the table but am not well versed with the TCM tuning and not something we had time to get into.. The cars drives and feel great 0 knock or misfires and pulls like a beast so we are leaving it here for now gonna get to the track and run it get the feel for it and in 8 weeks when my forged rods and pistons are here and I get a 14lb pulley we will be tuning again.. Eventually this Torque converter is going to give I will log some hard acceleration and look for slipping.

You guys have to remember everyone is still learning these cars especially the v6 with its standalone ECU so its seems easy to be like hey do this do that but when you are focusing on learning something while trying to make it the best it can be its very time consuming. I am just lucky enough I have some people close by that are excited to learn with me.

Wow, I did not think the A8 transmission would be such a limiting factor because I assumed it was the same in both I4, V6, and V8 cars. Do you know if the torque converter in the V8 is the same as in the 4 and 6?

[Dustya]

Originally Posted by WideTrx

Here are my dyno runs on a completely stock 2017 A8, no tune, no CAI, stock exhaust (non-npp). Notice the nosedive once it hits the speed limiter in 5th gear at only 7K RPM, so it could have eeked out a few more HP. Running pump 93 octane. I was getting 285 at the wheels.

Car looks like its running super clean for no tune. As for dyno results remember dyno is just a tool now that you have a base on that dyno after you do any mods or tuning make sure you go back to the same dyno so you can see what your gains are. because you might get some power adders go to another dyno and see 5hp gained because your baseline would have been lower somewhere else.


Good to see some others out there getting some baseline pulls!