[The Boat]

or worse. I've been warning against this for years... everyday I wake up as if i'm in a nightmare... in the last days of the Roman Republic.... say hello to big brother!!!

[Zhawk]

[QUOTE=JaysonAych;371795]Don't see what the big deal is. If I get a car loan, the finance company dictates to me the minimum amount of insurance coverage I have to get, the maximums of any deductibles, and who the loss payee is (them). Because it's their money and they want to be sure they get it all back if something goes wrong with the loan. [QUOTE]

True but they can't tell you where to work or who to associate with. The plan for viability of GM should not have had any personalalities attached to it. I think Rick leaving GM will be good for GM in the long run but don't like the idea of the gov't being able to bring pressure on board choices.

It's not like the US Government put a gun to the heads of GM executives and said, "HERE TAKE THIS MONEY OR ELSE SO WE CAN OWN YOUR COMPANY HAHAHAHA." GM went to Washington begging for the money and they knew there would be stipulations to be sure that the taxpayers would get their money back and that the money would be used to make real changes at GM. If that's not getting done and they still want more government money (again, taxpayer money GM's asking for of their own accord), then I have no problem with the government telling them what they need to do differently to get that money so we don't end up shoveling it into a big hole.

That being said, Wagoner stepping down isn't going to fix anything. Henderson isn't going to turn the company around any better or faster than Wagoner. It's just a big PR spin on both sides of the table. A new round of loans is just delaying the inevitable.

GM and Chrysler asked for the loans that they would have been able to receive through the normal system if the financial markets had NOT had the meltdown they had. That, along with the bailouts GIVEN to the banks (and the banks not using the money to shore up the loan market), made the gov't the lender of last resort.

I would personally rather see GM go through a major restructuring than have any gov't involvement within the company. Our government is not what you would consider efficient by any means, no matter who is in charge.

Look, I am going to be watching this very carefully, along with the events unfolding at the Treasury Dept (Geithner seems to be asking for more powers). I would not suggest that anyone be fearful or to panic but to pay attention and watch what is being done in your name (citizens) with a critical eye. GM may turn in an updated plan that the administration can go for, or it is even possible that no matter what they turn in, it won't be enough.
They have a long and tough battle ahead of them. Hopefully, our government won't be their toughest adversary.

Oh, and all of those calls about GM just building crap, cut it out. They may not have been producing the Camaro but that doesn't mean everything else is garbage. Check out the reviews if their newer cars. And watch what's in the pipeline, the Cruse is supposed to blow away the Cobalt according to independent sources and the Cobalt was a massive improvement over the Cavalier.
Everyone, GM no longer builds the Chevette, OK?

[Blizzard]

Yes this is BS, but there is something we can do about it. We the American people have put these politicians in to place and they work for us and yet we as a majority do nothing in the means of telling them what we want.It is wrong for our government to dictate what we can and can not buy, hell its unconstitutional. If a car company wants to build a 1000hp car that gets 2 mpg it should be allowed too and if I want to be able to buy such a car I should not be charged a gas guzzler tax, this is my right.now I am not saying we should throw fuel economy out the window but a smart car company would build cars to fit the demands of the consumer and as most of you know even if you have never taken a econ class that this is the law of supply and demand. Now most of you will say no supply and demand dictates price, well you are right but it also controls what is made and what is not, it is the reason that in the late 50's and throughout the 60's we had a boom in fast strong cars because thats what the people wanted. Now most of you want to tell me I haven't told you what we can do about it, well our government works the same way. We are the consumer and the government is the supplier, we tell them what we want and if they want to keep their job they do what we ask them to. So if you do not want the government treading upon your civil liberties then tell them so if they do not listen then become active in removing them from that position, you don't have to wait till elections to remove them if you can get enough people together you can call for their resignation.

[cabaret2]

Look, the country is not going into a fascist or socialist state just because of what is going on. Enough is enough with that kind of talk. GM put themselves in this situation. THEY CHOOSE TO GO TO WASHINGTON TO BEG FOR $$$$$$$!!!! The NEWER cars from GM are a lot better, but what about the past ones??? This website is full of Camaro & GM enthusiasts & loyalists, but we are not part of the majority feeling towards GM. A lot of people out there feel that their cars are junk for some reason or another. If a company has that mass perception about them, then it is up to them to change the peoples' minds. As far as Wagoner stepping down, if that is what has to be done for them to keep getting a hand out, then so be it. I honestly have no remorse for ANYONE who gets paid $10+ million dollars/yr for how ever many years while the company has poor financial performance. It was his job to avoid such things from happening. If you or I perform poorly at our jobs, we wont have one any longer. THAT IS THE TRUTH!!!! NO ONE should be rewarded for failure. As far as President Obama, I think a lot of us are forgetting HE WALKED INTO THIS MESS!! He is doing the best he can do with what he has to work with. There is a lot of ignorance abound in regards to this financial melodrama. If it took 8+yrs for this to get all screwed up, how long do people actually think it will take to even remotely see the light again??? Perfect example, people should do their research & see how long GM had AFM technology in their possession but neglected to use it. I think that if they did present it to the public from long ago, & helped people save gas, then it would have only helped them. Instead, they lived it up on the SUV craze with gas guzzlers & were too greedy just like AIG & some of these other companies that are in trouble now. Remember, you reap what you sow. I believe the President is going to do what he must to prevent the further loss of American jobs from GM & Chrysler. We all have loan stipulations we have to follow if we want to drive a car or own a home or even use a cell phone. So why shouldn't they??? A loan is a loan, whether it be from GMAC or the White House. I know the Camaro will be fine. It is one of the few bright spots that they have going that the White House will tolerate.

[Vash]

Well I think he did as good a job without closing a bunch of plants as possible.

Without Mr Wagoner's project support, 5th Generation Camaro probably would not be under production.

Now what's important ... issue number one for GM. Keeping Camaro production going.

This is whut Obama should do. Make the V6 Camaro free for everyone. That's one hell of a stimuli idea if I do say so myself.

[ShnOmac]

Originally Posted by The Boat

it really is the road to Italian style fascism that he seems to be driving the country towards

This is part of the reasons our threads get locked........ Instead of staying on CAMARO specific items people spin it into politics......Im just sayin....

[interrex]

THANK GOD it has been long over due. They are the ones that have killed off the Oldsmobile and other brands to cut cost. And still ran the company into the ground by their lack of management skills. Buick grand national was a great car just to name a few....

..

[Vash]

Lack of mgmt skills? You mean like manageing to design and produce a new Camaro and other great cars?

[Txturbo]

Originally Posted by Blue Maro Demon

I just saw this on the news I hope that my Camaro will even be made still.

It has nothing to do with the Camaro being made. The people who actually make the Camaro are still working. They will just have a new leader.

[greenrail]

TIME TO SHUT THIS THREAD DOWN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Mr. Wyndham]

If we can keep politics out of this, we can continue -- otherwise this thread gets shut down faster than a Chinese restaurant with records of cat purchases.


I sure as hell don't like this, either...

[GTAHVIT]

Originally Posted by ZYAL8R

I hardly see how this is off-topic from the Camaro. GM builds Camaro. GM owns Camaro. Things that affect GM obviously should concern those of us who want a GM product............more specifically.....the Camaro............................and these days....................the ABSOLUTE MOST visible model IS the Camaro. Prove me wrong on that one!

Do I think for one second the news of one of the CEO's "quitting or being quit" affect the future of the Camaro......................... not in your wildest dreams! Aint't gonna happen.

BUT, could this be a good thing for GM, yeah! If things ain't working right, it's time to shake things up a bit.

Mods may take this off b/c of it being political, but if they do, then it just tells me that they don't want us to talk about things that GM doesn't want them to allow...................which is very sad! It would not be the first time, which begs the question.....Who's playing politics?
I have a Camaro on order, I have been loyal to GM since my first vehicle and never wavered...never once. So if a topic comes up about the upper-management of GM, I should be able to discuss it freely w/o fear of a "SHUNT".

After all, we all know that here on Camaro5, at least there are 2 sides to every story..........instead of the one-sided media pit-bull dogs! If you ask me, this is the "lesser of two evils" as far as press goes.!

If there is a way to get the Mods to rally against you it is to make a post like this.

We aren't being told to do anything by GM. if you have a concern as to how this site is moderated then you need to send that to Mod you trust or an Admin.

The bottom line in all of this is we don't allow political commentary, debate, or satire of any kind. There are plenty of places on the web for you to have that kind of debate. NOW, take note of the posts I left in place. We don't mind the debate on what is good and bad with Mr. Wagoner leaving. We will not tolerate this turning in to a political philosophy argument that will divide us as Camaro enthusiasts. We've tried it before and it failed miserably...

That's why we may close this thread again...

This is a privately owned web site, and as such, can enforce whatever rules the Admins/Mods choose to.

[GTAHVIT]

Last time we are going to clean up this thread... One more off topic or politically motivated post and it's gone.

And warning issued to those who do it.

Keep it focused on Wagoner and the camaro. Leave your opinions on politics out.