[Msquared]

Originally Posted by conemark

I know the proposal chatter for a few years now has been favoring putting the Track Ponies to FS to help revive that class. I even mentioned to a few SAC members to start thinking of some of the BS "also-rans" like the Cadillac ATS-V for a move to FS. However it seems stuck at the "Thank you for your input" stage.

It seems to me that either they should:

1. Keep the track package pony cars in BS and move the new Supra up AS (and maybe the M2 also?), and move the E90 M3 to BS; or
2. Just move the track package pony cars to FS.

Either would work, but the idea that any Camaro should compete against Toyota's premier sports car is pretty silly to me on its face. Also, it appears that FS is being completely dominated now by E90 M3s with Competition packages that are closer in spec and concept to a Camaro SS 1LE than to a regular SS. Those M3s when new cost ZLE money, and decent ones on the used market still cost more used than a brand new SS 1LE...for a car that's 7-10 years old.

[foshjowler]

Originally Posted by apexit53

you could do that with the shocks!

I totally get not wanting to buy new, just have to find one that has been on a lot for too long and the dealer just wants to ship it!

I found one that was the exact spec and color I wanted with 3k miles for like $24k out in Kansas, and I was willing to pay to ship it, but someone had gotten to it before me and the dealership left it on the website for at least an extra week.

[conemark]

It's hard to say what may work for an FS revivial. I think the Track Ponies may be the right direction though. With the advent of CAM, most folks buying the base cars (non 1LE's) are spending slightly more than what a full prep for FS would take without the limitiations of the Stock, er Street, ruleset.

[Msquared]

Originally Posted by conemark

It's hard to say what may work for an FS revivial. I think the Track Ponies may be the right direction though. With the advent of CAM, most folks buying the base cars (non 1LE's) are spending slightly more than what a full prep for FS would take without the limitiations of the Stock, er Street, ruleset.

I guess the question is, if the M3 were moved out of FS, would the non-track-package pony cars come back and play? There are lots of them out there, but do any autocrossers own them anymore? If the answer is no, they wouldn't come flocking back and anyone serious about autocrossing a track pony is buying a track-pony, then they should just move the track ponies to FS be done with it. Since the 1LE and 2PP aren't limited production cars, anyone can buy one. So I don't think I see a problem with that.

Next question, and bringing this closer to topic: should the 2.0T (including 1LE) also be brought into FS? That could get interesting, given they are 450lbs lighter than an SS1LE with a better weight distribution, and they have an SS suspension and wheels but no eLSD.

[5inn]

Originally Posted by Msquared

Next question, and bringing this closer to topic: should the 2.0T (including 1LE) also be brought into FS? That could get interesting, given they are 450lbs lighter than an SS1LE with a better weight distribution, and they have an SS suspension and wheels but no eLSD.

With current classes and PAX, the SCCA is saying that fastest cars should be 1LE in BS, then 2.0T in DS, then SS in FS. DS pax is currently a smidge faster than FS, which sort of doesn't make sense but I guess lightweight > power, to some extent.

[Msquared]

Originally Posted by 5inn

DS pax is currently a smidge faster than FS, which sort of doesn't make sense but I guess lightweight > power, to some extent.

For autocross courses it usually does. There's a serious weight difference and most of it is off the front of the car. I probably don't have to tell people reading this thread that the GM engineers' 2019 2.0T 1LE won CAM-C wherever it went. When I saw that car get weighed in 2018 during the CAM East Challenge, it came in at 3270lb. It probably put 400rwhp down at most. It wouldn't surprise me that a well prepped DS 1LE could at least equal, if not surpass, the times of an SS 1LE.

[PedalFaster]

Originally Posted by 5inn

With current classes and PAX, the SCCA is saying

Remember that the SCCA has nothing to do with creating PAX -- the indexes are created by Rick Ruth, who has no affiliation with the club other than being a member.

[foshjowler]

Originally Posted by Msquared

For autocross courses it usually does. There's a serious weight difference and most of it is off the front of the car. I probably don't have to tell people reading this thread that the GM engineers' 2019 2.0T 1LE won CAM-C wherever it went. When I saw that car get weighed in 2018 during the CAM East Challenge, it came in at 3270lb. It probably put 400rwhp down at most. It wouldn't surprise me that a well prepped DS 1LE could at least equal, if not surpass, the times of an SS 1LE.

I saw someone was a bristol in a 2.0T 1LE, and it weighed in at 3312, or there about, on a mostly empty tank. GM says they weigh 3350, I'm not sure if that is curb weight and if so how much fuel was in it. CAMC weight is 3300 lbs and the factory muffler is probably 50+ lbs, so just a muffler delete can make you have to use a ballast.

[apexit53]

Originally Posted by foshjowler

I saw someone was a bristol in a 2.0T 1LE, and it weighed in at 3312, or there about, on a mostly empty tank. GM says they weigh 3350, I'm not sure if that is curb weight and if so how much fuel was in it. CAMC weight is 3300 lbs and the factory muffler is probably 50+ lbs, so just a muffler delete can make you have to use a ballast.

The first year it won there was no weight restrictions. CAM added the minimum weight because of that car! lol. I do belive they had to add weight to the car to make it pass.

Originally Posted by Msquared

I guess the question is, if the M3 were moved out of FS, would the non-track-package pony cars come back and play? There are lots of them out there, but do any autocrossers own them anymore? If the answer is no, they wouldn't come flocking back and anyone serious about autocrossing a track pony is buying a track-pony, then they should just move the track ponies to FS be done with it. Since the 1LE and 2PP aren't limited production cars, anyone can buy one. So I don't think I see a problem with that.

Next question, and bringing this closer to topic: should the 2.0T (including 1LE) also be brought into FS? That could get interesting, given they are 450lbs lighter than an SS1LE with a better weight distribution, and they have an SS suspension and wheels but no eLSD.

I was part of the test that put the v6 1le in FS when i had my 1ss. it was so much more nimble but lacked the grunt! Given the course im sure a turbo could come close if not a tad faster than a non 1LE V8 in FS. That said the issue i see is the detentions... its still a long wide car, just easier on fuel and tires lol.

I do need to try and get into someones turbo camaro to see how it compares, also compares to a type r.

[5inn]

Originally Posted by PedalFaster

Remember that the SCCA has nothing to do with creating PAX -- the indexes are created by Rick Ruth, who has no affiliation with the club other than being a member.

Good point, I forgot about this. Also funny to see you here. Did you buy a Camaro for autox?

(I'm on a certain other forum for autocrossers and co-drove the same Civic that you did)

[PedalFaster]

Originally Posted by 5inn

Good point, I forgot about this. Also funny to see you here. Did you buy a Camaro for autox?

(I'm on a certain other forum for autocrossers and co-drove the same Civic that you did)

Don’t have a Camaro, but this is one of the autocross forums I lurk on since I’ve considered buying pretty much every kind of 6th-Gen Camaro at some point.

And yes, I don’t think we’ve ever met in person, but there are only two degrees of separation between us through a few different channels.

Kind of funny to see two H Street alumni chatting on a Camaro forum.

[clyde]

Am I the only one hung up on the turbo 1LE's wider rear wheels? The non-1LE turbo is really neutral, super well balanced and incredibly playful with 8.5" all around. On paper, moving to 9.5"s in back seems like a big step in the wrong direction. I have no idea how the other suspension changes might play into that balance and I'm sure alignment tweaks can cover much of the rest, but the idea really gives me pause.

[foshjowler]

Originally Posted by clyde

Am I the only one hung up on the turbo 1LE's wider rear wheels? The non-1LE turbo is really neutral, super well balanced and incredibly playful with 8.5" all around. On paper, moving to 9.5"s in back seems like a big step in the wrong direction. I have no idea how the other suspension changes might play into that balance and I'm sure alignment tweaks can cover much of the rest, but the idea really gives me pause.

I too am a big believer in square setups, but it's still better to have more grip regardless if it's just the rear axle. I have some trouble coming out of slow corners, and that's on 305s.

[Msquared]

Originally Posted by foshjowler

I too am a big believer in square setups, but it's still better to have more grip regardless if it's just the rear axle. I have some trouble coming out of slow corners, and that's on 305s.

Yep, you can never go wrong by adding grip, which is what the wider rears do. You can always juggle front and rear spring and sway bar rates to move some of the added grip forward if you want. ETA: which I'm sure Chevy did with that package, because the SS 1LE is not at all pushy. That is, Chevy is not afraid to sell us a pretty neutral car (which is great, btw).