[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by Joe Remi

This plan would work for us boomers, too (I'm 58). Both ends of the age spectrum need an affordable hot rod they can see out of, I don't have a clue what GM was thinking with this design.

Part of the appeal of traditional hotrods, sports roadsters, and 2-seaters and 2+2 cars was that you the owner had to do some of the adjusting. It was part of what let you distinguish yourself from the conformist herd. Those cars weren't supposed to be "junior sedans"; more like race cars (of one sort or another) with a modicum of streetability baked in.


That said, the Camaro could have been a bit easier to adapt to, at least as far as outward visibility is concerned. But I don't think it would have taken more than an inch here, another inch there, and fractions of an inch in a few more places. Certainly not a wholesale redesign. Remember, a ponycar is not supposed to be a sedan.

I suspect you're coming from years/decades of FWD sedan ownership, so the difference in outward visibility is probably making the visibility itself seem worse than it really is. I went through this, perhaps to a lesser extent, about a dozen years ago. More recently, I didn't find driving a 6th gen 1SS all that much different, outward-visibilitywise, than driving my GT. FWIW, I'm 72.


Norm

[Joe Remi]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

Part of the appeal of traditional hotrods, sports roadsters, and 2-seaters and 2+2 cars was that you the owner had to do some of the adjusting. It was part of what let you distinguish yourself from the conformist herd. Those cars weren't supposed to be "junior sedans"; more like race cars (of one sort or another) with a modicum of streetability baked in.


That said, the Camaro could have been a bit easier to adapt to, at least as far as outward visibility is concerned. But I don't think it would have taken more than an inch here, another inch there, and fractions of an inch in a few more places. Certainly not a wholesale redesign. Remember, a ponycar is not supposed to be a sedan.

I suspect you're coming from years/decades of FWD sedan ownership, so the difference in outward visibility is probably making the visibility itself seem worse than it really is. I went through this, perhaps to a lesser extent, about a dozen years ago. More recently, I didn't find driving a 6th gen 1SS all that much different, outward-visibilitywise, than driving my GT. FWIW, I'm 72.


Norm

I had a 2000 Porsche Boxter S, I know all about cramped interiors and huge blind spots. My contention is the Camaro had room to be a little more airy without being a 2-door sedan. They sacrificed it for an extreme 'chopped' look that no one was asking for.

[pyroguy]

Originally Posted by Joe Remi

"Yes I think electric vehicles are going to be a big thing for the next 10 or so years, but I'm beginning to think they may not be as big of a deal as what people are making them out to be."

I think that's wishful thinking on your part. There's no evidence manufacturers or consumers are going to decide EV is just as dirty as ICE and give up on the former.

There's starting to be some stirring about the how green, green vehicles actually are. Hell Michael Moore just did a movie about it. If he's doing a movie about it there's others on his side that are noticing it too.

Originally Posted by IOMike

The info is all but dried up now, but they were very close to releasing a 2nd gen "new GTO" that was going to be very similar to a 2 door G8. G8's had great styling and a more modern interior, I had an 08. The GTO was a much higher quality vehicle though and was much better put together. My understanding is the SS is a lot higher quality than the G8 was, but with every option they offered but I have not driven one.

GTO - very high quality build, low options
G8 - Cheap hit a price point build, but looked good and more options
SS - Very high quality again, all the options.

I never heard about a 2nd gen GTO new, but it would have been nice. They really were fun. I too had a G8, an '09 GT. I loved that car and I'd probably still have it if it wasn't for a drunk driver hitting and totaling it. I will give you that the G8 needed more refinement on the interior. It was nice, but it definitely had its downfalls. The SS had the interior the G8 should have or the G8 had the exterior the SS should have. At least the SS got Brembos on all 4 corners and magnetic ride eventually.

[Joe Remi]

Michael Moore is totally eating it for that doc, so I wouldn't be looking to him as a big mover amongst the environmentally conscious.

My point stands: Anyone looking for EV to get traded back for ICE on the basis of greens deciding they're essentially the same..not happening. EV is the future of automobile propulsion and will undoubtedly be at least part of a hybrid Camaro someday, if not the only motor in the car.

[MrChrisLS3]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Limits? Yes, absolutely. Severely? No. But enough to ensure that ICE vehicles will be around for a long time. EV is not the answer for a lot of people. And it is the absolute best answer for a lot of people. Usually these discussions turn into “ICEs will be banned and everybody will be forced to have one” versus “No infrastructure + electricity is generated from coal so it’s dirtier than gas” arguments. Thing is, neither of those extremes is true. EVs are getting better at a rapid rate. Also ICE technology is advancing impressively, though at a slower rate. Both variants will be around. My company is not forecasting > 10% EV penetration before 2026. We don’t forecast out far enough to accurately suggest when it will be 100% (because it probably never will be)

So it's this part that relates more closely to the specific topic of this thread, a specific model, the Camaro.

I completely understand that you are in a position in the middle of the EV development. So I also understand that there is probably more that you can't say than what you can say.

The Camaro has a long history, purpose, and place GM line up. However, in the last few years it has had mediocre at best.

So I guess the question for GM, is what to do with it? Does the Camaro become the Halo for their EV development? As you say, you're predicting 10% EV penetration by 2026, and given the current limitations of ownership, does it make more sense for GM to make the Camaro EV exclusively to show off their EV prowess, (a.k.a. kick Tesla in the pants) which would make it a low volume car?

Or, do they, as the numbers might suggest, build an adaptable platform that is capable of using either ICE, EV, or Hybrid technology, with 10% being EV?
While using the new platform to possible address some of the public perception, (true or not) that is driving consumers to the competition?

With Corvette going in the direction it is, I find it hard to believe that GM would just kill the Camaro all together, as it's role as the FE/RWD sports car has a bigger place in the line up. But that's an entirely different topic.

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by Joe Remi

I had a 2000 Porsche Boxter S, I know all about cramped interiors and huge blind spots. My contention is the Camaro had room to be a little more airy without being a 2-door sedan. They sacrificed it for an extreme 'chopped' look that no one was asking for.

Perhaps body and greenhouse proportions somewhat closer to the 3rd gen F-body would have been better. I don't much care for the look of overly-chopped hot rods either.

FWIW, I'm guessing that even coming from a Boxster S the view out the windshield and side glass in the 6th gen would still feel a little restricted even though you don't actually use the very upper and lower edges of visibility all that often.


Norm

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by MrChrisLS3

So it's this part that relates more closely to the specific topic of this thread, a specific model, the Camaro.

I completely understand that you are in a position in the middle of the EV development. So I also understand that there is probably more that you can't say than what you can say.

The Camaro has a long history, purpose, and place GM line up. However, in the last few years it has had mediocre at best.

So I guess the question for GM, is what to do with it? Does the Camaro become the Halo for their EV development? As you say, you're predicting 10% EV penetration by 2026, and given the current limitations of ownership, does it make more sense for GM to make the Camaro EV exclusively to show off their EV prowess, (a.k.a. kick Tesla in the pants) which would make it a low volume car?

Or, do they, as the numbers might suggest, build an adaptable platform that is capable of using either ICE, EV, or Hybrid technology, with 10% being EV?
While using the new platform to possible address some of the public perception, (true or not) that is driving consumers to the competition?

With Corvette going in the direction it is, I find it hard to believe that GM would just kill the Camaro all together, as it's role as the FE/RWD sports car has a bigger place in the line up. But that's an entirely different topic.

Good discussion! I’m not certain GM has it totally sorted out yet, and for that reason I fully expect at least one more cycle of ICE based Camaro. GM has shown its hand on the overall direction they are taking towards electrification and that is

1. Skateboard platform. FYI - the first skateboard platform was shown by GM in the ‘90s. Larry Burns was head of R&D and Rick Wagoner was CEO. They showed a skateboard platform that was propulsion system agnostic (hybrid, EV,Fuel Cell) and with a body that could be lifted off and exchanged for another body. I’ll have to see if I can find a photo somewhere
2. High volume, high demand, High profit margin vehicles. GMC Hummer, Cadillac portfolio, CUVs
3. Clear intent to spread beyond Cadillac brand based on high degree of vertical integration

   building a plant to make batteries

   manufacturing own motors and drive units

   agreement to provide Honda some batteries and also making other components and systems available to other OEMs

   hyper-focus on battery chemistry development and cost reduction

Given all that, I do not expect to see GM implement an adaptable platform that would include EV applications. Vehicles will be EV on a skateboard platform or they will be ICE on a traditional platform. I also think that GM is abandoning all forms of hybrid applications EXCEPT for performance applications like Corvette, and maybe Camaro. GM does have and will continue to have hybrids in China, but in the US, I don’t expect to see any non-performance based hybrids.

EDIT: FOUND IT!! Here’s the GM AUTOnomy concept skateboard!

[mrkyleman]

I am not a fan of EVs right now. I think the technology is still a little young and just not ready to go mainstream. I understand Teslas are cool and hip, but for some of the work and distances I travel even the best EVs do not fit my needs. I hate the idea of having to find a place to plug in and charge. Plus I like hearing combustion engines!

[pyroguy]

Originally Posted by Joe Remi

Michael Moore is totally eating it for that doc, so I wouldn't be looking to him as a big mover amongst the environmentally conscious.

My point stands: Anyone looking for EV to get traded back for ICE on the basis of greens deciding they're essentially the same..not happening. EV is the future of automobile propulsion and will undoubtedly be at least part of a hybrid Camaro someday, if not the only motor in the car.

I'm zero percent a fan of Michael Moore, but there's plenty of people who follow him like a shadow. If he says it, they'll believe it. I'm not saying that today, tomorrow, next week or even next month people will flock away from EV's. However, give it another 10 years and I think you'll see an alternative to EV's come about.

[TheWiseWolf]

I have to wait till 2025???

sigh....

[Joe Remi]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

Perhaps body and greenhouse proportions somewhat closer to the 3rd gen F-body would have been better. I don't much care for the look of overly-chopped hot rods either.

FWIW, I'm guessing that even coming from a Boxster S the view out the windshield and side glass in the 6th gen would still feel a little restricted even though you don't actually use the very upper and lower edges of visibility all that often.


Norm

You're probably right about the Boxster's greenhouse, my memory is a bit vague on it now. To clarify, I can actually see out of the Camaro just fine, the mirrors and backup camera offer all I need. It's the cramped, claustrophobic sensation I don't like and which I think was unnecessary to design into the car.

But I'm woefully off topic here, it's supposed to be about an EV Camaro. I just hope that future-car is better ergonomically.

[mikeman]

Originally Posted by Joe Remi

You're probably right about the Boxster's greenhouse, my memory is a bit vague on it now. To clarify, I can actually see out of the Camaro just fine, the mirrors and backup camera offer all I need. It's the cramped, claustrophobic sensation I don't like and which I think was unnecessary to design into the car.

But I'm woefully off topic here, it's supposed to be about an EV Camaro. I just hope that future-car is better ergonomically.

Remember though, the 6th gen is even shorter in greenhouse height than the 5th gen by about a half an inch. Combined with the smaller cabin and more fastback raked angle of the rear window, it appears even more claustrophobic than the 5th gen.

Personally, I think the short greenhouse worked very effectively on the 5th gen. Once you get used to it, it's really no problem at all. The shorter greenhouse gives the car a rather sinister "hunkered down" appearance. However, if you want to lay blame on who started this whole thing, you would have to blame Chrysler with their 300C. That car sold extremely well when it first came out so I don't really blame GM for trying to copy a little bit of that magic. The problem is, just like with larger diameter wheels, once you start getting used to "the look", the older models with taller greenhouses and smaller diameter wheels start looking old and outdated.

When the 6th gen came out, they went even shorter to maintain that optical illusion. I think what throws off the 6th gen design from using this effectively is the increased angle of the fastback rear window. I think short greenhouses look better on cars with less severe rear window rakes. It makes them look a lot more sportier than they would with a taller bubble top. The 6th gen has a faster rear window rake so it probably would have been better for GM to have increased the height of the greenhouse by a half an inch instead of going shorter.

[AZCamaroFan]

i don't think the 6th is more claustrophopic. not sure if the beltline is slightly lower but i think the front and sides feel easier to see out of than the 5th.

[MrChrisLS3]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Good discussion! I’m not certain GM has it totally sorted out yet, and for that reason I fully expect at least one more cycle of ICE based Camaro. GM has shown its hand on the overall direction they are taking towards electrification and that is

1. Skateboard platform. FYI - the first skateboard platform was shown by GM in the ‘90s. Larry Burns was head of R&D and Rick Wagoner was CEO. They showed a skateboard platform that was propulsion system agnostic (hybrid, EV,Fuel Cell) and with a body that could be lifted off and exchanged for another body. I’ll have to see if I can find a photo somewhere
2. High volume, high demand, High profit margin vehicles. GMC Hummer, Cadillac portfolio, CUVs
3. Clear intent to spread beyond Cadillac brand based on high degree of vertical integration

   building a plant to make batteries

   manufacturing own motors and drive units

   agreement to provide Honda some batteries and also making other components and systems available to other OEMs

   hyper-focus on battery chemistry development and cost reduction

Given all that, I do not expect to see GM implement an adaptable platform that would include EV applications. Vehicles will be EV on a skateboard platform or they will be ICE on a traditional platform. I also think that GM is abandoning all forms of hybrid applications EXCEPT for performance applications like Corvette, and maybe Camaro. GM does have and will continue to have hybrids in China, but in the US, I don’t expect to see any non-performance based hybrids.

EDIT: FOUND IT!! Here’s the GM AUTOnomy concept skateboard!

That looks like it would be fun to putt around in, though no "putt,putt". Make it a roadster and I'm in.

I'm sure that 6th Gen Camaro sales have to be disappointing to GM, and probably very frustrating for Al O. as this was his last swing at the car, at least as we know it. I mean, the 6th Gen Camaro is by far the best Camaro engineered. Never has it's performance been this close to the Corvette (C7) not only in speed but in handling as well. While esthetics are subjective, the design of the 6th Gen is simply remarkable. But, it is what it is.

Hopefully you are correct in that there will A) be a 7th gen, and B) be ICE powered. A performance based hybrid AWD ZL1 would not break my heart at all. With Corvette going all in on the mid engine chasing the Euro Supercars, I would really like to see Camaro moving the FE performance with sharing the powertrains and some of the performance goodies with it's big brother.

If it does go straight EV, then let's hope that it maintains the "spirit of Camaro" is the best at what it does...as in "what's a Tesla?"