[cmancha003]

Originally Posted by shaffe

Agreed. It seems for the 6th gen they have just about every base covered. Would they really need a 4th track oriented model?

I would argue that none of them are really track oriented except maybe the ZL1 1LE. In all reality, the LT 1LE is a SS with a v6, SS 1LE is a cheaper ZL1 with less power/options. All those cars are street cars. The only track oriented version is the ZL1 1LE. But that is my definition; the car must have some sacrifices to make it track oriented (i.e. less comfortable, ridiculous aero, removal of seats, etc)

In theory, the Z/28 would be a track car for the street. Might be faster than the ZL1 on some tracks, might not on others. Would be less comfortable, lighter, less power, n/a.

[GrimReaperSS]

I dont feel a potential new "Z/28" will need to out power the ZL1 1LE. NOW, that doesnt mean it cant out perform it.. the Corvette has made use of Carbon fiber components regularly for the last two generations. A Z/28 could be a potential benefactor in this where the roof, hood, front fenders, side skirts, spoilers etc could be made with it. The GT350 showed that other components for the vehicle structure/supports could be change to it as well (radiator/core support). The material is not as pricey as it once was. With the addition of an higher powered (more than the SS) NA engine and a dramatic weight decrease, it would scream! How much lateral grip would it have if it were another 200-300(?) lbs off the weight of the ZL1 1LE due to less body weight and less engine weight (no supercharger and associated components), while using the same suspension and wheels/tires?

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by GrimReaperSS

I dont feel a potential new "Z/28" will need to out power the ZL1 1LE. NOW, that doesnt mean it cant out perform it.. the Corvette has made use of Carbon fiber components regularly for the last two generations. A Z/28 could be a potential benefactor in this where the roof, hood, front fenders, side skirts, spoilers etc could be made with it. The GT350 showed that other components for the vehicle structure/supports could be change to it as well (radiator/core support). The material is not as pricey as it once was. With the addition of an higher powered (more than the SS) NA engine and a dramatic weight decrease, it would scream! How much lateral grip would it have if it were another 200-300(?) lbs off the weight of the ZL1 1LE due to less body weight and less engine weight (no supercharger and associated components), while using the same suspension and wheels/tires?

A ZL1 1LE weighs 3820 (just 73lbs shy from an SS 1LE).

A "regular" ZL1 is 3883. 6 of those pounds is in the wheels/tires...the rest is split between the suspension, rear glass, and removal the foldable rear seat. (all of which would theoretically be part of the Z/28 package.

So let's take 3747 (SS 1LE), and subtract 63 lbs...to pretend we put on the DSSV dampers, stopped the rear seats from folding down, and installed lighter glass: 3684 lb theoretical Z/28 with not luxury options, and the lightest weight of engine and suspension components.

3820 (ZL1 1LE) - 3684 (Hyp. Z/28) = 136 lbs. Perhaps we could find 10-15 or so in the base-level speaker system. You'd need to find 64 more lbs to hit your 200 less mark...164 to hit the 300 mark.

CF isn't as expensive as it used to be....but it will be very expensive to use enough to pull 64-164 more pounds out of the car.

But I admit...it would be intriguing to see what a 550 hp naturally aspirated, 3520 lb Camaro could do. I wouldn't be intrigued to pay the price for that, though.

[2cnd chance]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

In my opinion...that IS the SS/1LE...

What they've done with this car...is solidify the 1LE moniker as a track-oriented package for ALL Camaros...similar to the Z07 package on Corvette. Only, Camaro team has been allowed to be far more creative with the suspension.

In Corvette world...you can choose from 3 models (Stingray, GS, Z06), and 2 of the three allow for the addition of a track package (Z07). In Camaro world...you can choose from 3 models (LT, SS, ZL1), and all three offer a track package (1LE).

Don't forget about the Z51 package for the Stingray.


My feeling is that the Z/28 could become the "Pure Drivers Camaro", think Porsche 911R.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by 2cnd chance

Don't forget about the Z51 package for the Stingray.


My feeling is that the Z/28 could become the "Pure Drivers Camaro", think Porsche 911R.

Yeah, I did forget that. My bad.

Hmm...possibly. But doesn't the 911R utilize the same engine/powertrain as the GT3? My understanding (and it's not a thorough one) is that the major difference between the two is the manual transmission.

[GrimReaperSS]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

A ZL1 1LE weighs 3820 (just 73lbs shy from an SS 1LE).

A "regular" ZL1 is 3883. 6 of those pounds is in the wheels/tires...the rest is split between the suspension, rear glass, and removal the foldable rear seat. (all of which would theoretically be part of the Z/28 package.

So let's take 3747 (SS 1LE), and subtract 63 lbs...to pretend we put on the DSSV dampers, stopped the rear seats from folding down, and installed lighter glass: 3684 lb theoretical Z/28 with not luxury options, and the lightest weight of engine and suspension components.

3820 (ZL1 1LE) - 3684 (Hyp. Z/28) = 136 lbs. Perhaps we could find 10-15 or so in the base-level speaker system. You'd need to find 64 more lbs to hit your 200 less mark...164 to hit the 300 mark.

CF isn't as expensive as it used to be....but it will be very expensive to use enough to pull 64-164 more pounds out of the car.

But I admit...it would be intriguing to see what a 550 hp naturally aspirated, 3520 lb Camaro could do. I wouldn't be intrigued to pay the price for that, though.

Technically you could use the 6 lbs from the wheels/tires as well as I was figuring on just using the same set-up, unless they also chose a carbon fiber wheel (not necessary in my opinoin). I'd be curious to know the weight differential between body components when using the standard steel vs CF. Then could ATTEMPT to calculate a total weight difference. Yes, I understand it still wont be cheap, but many manufacturers have neen developing ways to manufacturer it cheaper for.at least the last 10 years. Something has to have come to fruition at this point. I know I wouldnt consider it a reality at this point due to high cost repairs in the event of damage. Im just thinking of a trickle down seeing as its already been used by big brother Vette for many years already. What if we delete the rear seat all together? Thisnwould also eliminate the need for rear seat belts and their heavy retractors/pyrotechnics. What other components could be traded out? Go to manual seat adjusters? Personally I still would like some creature comforts as it would be more of a street car for me with some track time. I with you though, thinking 550-600 range is about right with a diet in mind.

[GrimReaperSS]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

Yeah, I did forget that. My bad.

Hmm...possibly. But doesn't the 911R utilize the same engine/powertrain as the GT3? My understanding (and it's not a thorough one) is that the major difference between the two is the manual transmission.

911R also does not have the large aero components of the GT3 or RS.

[MrChrisLS3]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

In my opinion...that IS the SS/1LE...

What they've done with this car...is solidify the 1LE moniker as a track-oriented package for ALL Camaros...similar to the Z07 package on Corvette. Only, Camaro team has been allowed to be far more creative with the suspension.

In Corvette world...you can choose from 3 models (Stingray, GS, Z06), and 2 of the three allow for the addition of a track package (Z07).

In Camaro world...you can choose from 3 models (LT, SS, ZL1), and all three offer a track package (1LE).

Right. So does the 1LE package for the SS, in 2018, include the wing, dive plates, 19" wheels 305 front and 325 rear on the F1 tires, with DSSV suspension, and wide body kit? Or, is it two separate 1LE packages? This is the part that doesn't really make sense to me. If the SS 1LE maintains it's current configuration, and the ZL1 has the "real" track 1LE package, then it seems that there is room for a car with the "real" track package and an N/A engine (LT1), hence Z/28.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by GrimReaperSS

What if we delete the rear seat all together? Thisnwould also eliminate the need for rear seat belts and their heavy retractors/pyrotechnics. What other components could be traded out? Go to manual seat adjusters? Personally I still would like some creature comforts as it would be more of a street car for me with some track time. I with you though, thinking 550-600 range is about right with a diet in mind.

Even with the Z/28, they didn't remove the rear seats...reasoning being, "we've already got a 2-seater sports car...and this is a Camaro". So I didn't consider that as a possibility.

Yeah - something like that could be very interesting...I just wonder if it'd be enough.

Originally Posted by GrimReaperSS

911R also does not have the large aero components of the GT3 or RS.

Ah, yes - that, too.

Originally Posted by MrChrisLS3

Right. So does the 1LE package for the SS, in 2018, include the wing, dive plates, 19" wheels 305 front and 325 rear on the F1 tires, with DSSV suspension, and wide body kit? Or, is it two separate 1LE packages? This is the part that doesn't really make sense to me. If the SS 1LE maintains it's current configuration, and the ZL1 has the "real" track 1LE package, then it seems that there is room for a car with the "real" track package and an N/A engine (LT1), hence Z/28.

Nope 2018 SS 1LE stays the same.

If you see our example above...what you'd end up with by doing this is a car that's slower than the ZL1 1LE...UNLESS...you extensively use light-weighting stuff like carbon fiber to compensate.

So I guess some folks (if that doesn't matter)...simply want a N/A engine, and don't care what the performance is?

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

A ZL1 1LE weighs 3820 (just 73lbs shy from an SS 1LE).

A "regular" ZL1 is 3883. 6 of those pounds is in the wheels/tires...the rest is split between the suspension, rear glass, and removal the foldable rear seat. (all of which would theoretically be part of the Z/28 package.

So let's take 3747 (SS 1LE), and subtract 63 lbs...to pretend we put on the DSSV dampers, stopped the rear seats from folding down, and installed lighter glass: 3684 lb theoretical Z/28 with not luxury options, and the lightest weight of engine and suspension components.

3820 (ZL1 1LE) - 3684 (Hyp. Z/28) = 136 lbs. Perhaps we could find 10-15 or so in the base-level speaker system. You'd need to find 64 more lbs to hit your 200 less mark...164 to hit the 300 mark.

CF isn't as expensive as it used to be....but it will be very expensive to use enough to pull 64-164 more pounds out of the car.

But I admit...it would be intriguing to see what a 550 hp naturally aspirated, 3520 lb Camaro could do. I wouldn't be intrigued to pay the price for that, though.

This ^ For as much as people want GM to build the most bad ass Camaro's possible, at the end of the day it is still a Camaro. How many people would truly shell out that much coin for a car full of go fast goodies but no tech.

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

Even with the Z/28, they didn't remove the rear seats...reasoning being, "we've already got a 2-seater sports car...and this is a Camaro". So I didn't consider that as a possibility.

Yeah - something like that could be very interesting...I just wonder if it'd be enough.


Ah, yes - that, too.


Nope 2018 SS 1LE stays the same.

If you see our example above...what you'd end up with by doing this is a car that's slower than the ZL1 1LE...UNLESS...you extensively use light-weighting stuff like carbon fiber to compensate.

So I guess some folks (if that doesn't matter)...simply want a N/A engine, and don't care what the performance is?

People just want the badge.

IMO The Z/28 should be a track focused model, but IMO it doesn't need to follow the 5th gens formula, (being so extreme). This is just my opinion (and I know it won't be a popular one) but the Z/28 doesn't need to be the halo camaro

[cmancha003]

I think some of the issue is that we have no GT350 or GT350R competitor. The SS is for the GT. The 1LE just trounces it more (I think Ford might release a Mach 1 to match). The ZL1 is way better than the GT350R is almost every metric and would be better suited to compete against their GT500. Since they tend to match up against each other, helping both brands, I would think that there is still room to match against a gt350r in an N/A platform.

I might be have a different opinion on how these cars match up, but I think there might be a misconception just because the Camaro is far ahead of the Mustang for this generation (so the Camaro tends to be scaled up in which model it competes against)

[MrChrisLS3]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

Even with the Z/28, they didn't remove the rear seats...reasoning being, "we've already got a 2-seater sports car...and this is a Camaro". So I didn't consider that as a possibility.

Yeah - something like that could be very interesting...I just wonder if it'd be enough.


Ah, yes - that, too.


Nope 2018 SS 1LE stays the same.

If you see our example above...what you'd end up with by doing this is a car that's slower than the ZL1 1LE...UNLESS...you extensively use light-weighting stuff like carbon fiber to compensate.

So I guess some folks (if that doesn't matter)...simply want a N/A engine, and don't care what the performance is?

Why does the Z/28 HAVE to be faster than the ZL1?

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by MrChrisLS3

Why does the Z/28 HAVE to be faster than the ZL1?

because the 5th gen made the Z/28 the "halo" car of the lineup

[mlee]

Originally Posted by MrChrisLS3

Why does the Z/28 HAVE to be faster than the ZL1?

It doesn't and it's not... in a straight line.

Road track yes since that's it's sole purpose.